GABBY & Wooden Award

[Los24]

What I find amazing is how much of Gabby's game mimics Stewie's. Her defense is a near mirror image, the primary difference being that Stewie was taller, which Gabby compensates for with her jumping ability. The behind-the-back blocks and rebounds (without getting called for over-the-back), the wild tip-ins, the court vision - always managing to disrupt passing lanes, the poking/prodding style of help defense in the post...all fairly scream Stewart.

I agree with most of what you stated but her shot blocking is no where near Stewie, far from it (126 blocks last year.) It was almost automatic if you brought it inside and she did it (blocks) consistently against tall players too. Its not a slam on Gabby but Stewie's height, wingspan and pretty good vertical (not Gabby's but still very good) made her a tremendous shot blocker. Also let her do those those while not getting in foul trouble....

 

[Los24]

Different needs. Last year vs this year.

Really? You can argue that offense was even less needed last year.... Lou is an overall better player that is why she started.

 

[Icebear]

Really? You can argue that offense was even less needed last year.... Lou is an overall better player that is why she started.

But Lou stretched the middle for Stewart and Tuck to penetrate and work the lane. The addition of Gabbie's rebounding and defensive skills less needed. As I said different skills were needed.

 

[huskeynut]

So would you take Dennis Rodman over Jordan? Just asking because I really like Gabby's game, even more so because that is how I played (very athletic, active all over, cover bigger guys, good passer, steals, but.... not a great shot or offensive repertoire.)

Everyone needs to remember this is not just athletics but basketball skill set. Plum can score every which way and demand a team's defensive attention every position. She has more assists and steals, not a defensive slouch by any means. Everyone does not realize Plum's or even Lou's effect on the rest of their respective teams' players because of how opponents need to defend.

I watched the highlights of many games and no doubt Gabby is a beast but she seems to be left wide open at times and she dribbles and does a handoff. To me opponents leave her wide open and she decides to take the shot occasionally or when there is a slower opponent assigned to her (often the case) she drives to the basket with her speed. No jump shot, no 3-pt shot, and going into WNBA she is not a 4/5. Not at that level.

One question I asked in another related thread... If Gabby's overall game is better than Lou's than why did Geno start Lou last year as freshman (?) even though Gabby had a year more experience, is great defensively and arguably one of the most athletically gifted players in WCBB. I know people here will disagree but Lou is a better passer too, although Gabby is obviously very good and leads with assists. Lou's decisions result in less turnovers (and she also in-bounds) and her passes are almost always on the money, many times the ball is in her hand for a split second as she sees the pass before the play has fully developed.

Gabby is great don't get me wrong but everyone dismissing other players like its a no brainier for NPOY is a bit ridiculous. I think DNPOY makes a ton of sense with being included in the running of NPOY. I'll finish on the way I finished the other post, with the game on the line who do you want to give the ball to in order to win the game??? Lou, Plum, or Gabby? I'll take maybe even Pheese (she has many offense moves in post, consistently hit mid-range, shoot deep when open, fade away using glass, is 65% from field.... plus a great rebounder and good defender.)

Los24 - lighten up.

My opinion on Gabby. If you disagree that's fine. But I never said Gabby's game is better than Lou's or Pheesa's you imply or for that matter Plum's. And who said anyone was dismissing players for NPOY. You are reading what isn't there. I was stating my belief that Gabby should be in the discussion for the Wooden Award. Nothing more, nothing less.

BTW - Gabby does have a 15 footer that she hits regularly.

And yea, if I want a team full of Gabby's that's my choice.

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

The problem is she may not be noticed by the public and the media, but when opposing coaches watch the film, she's the one that just jumps off the screen. Almost literally. She's the one they have to scheme against.

Yeah, but...I haven't seen that, yet.

I've seen teams scheme against Napheesa (complete waste of time) and Lou (beat her up while everyone else scores, instead), but haven't seen one against Gabby. Maybe they are and it is so ineffective that I can't pick it out.

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

I agree with most of what you stated but her shot blocking is no where near Stewie, far from it (126 blocks last year.) It was almost automatic if you brought it inside and she did it (blocks) consistently against tall players too. Its not a slam on Gabby but Stewie's height, wingspan and pretty good vertical (not Gabby's but still very good) made her a tremendous shot blocker. Also let her do those those while not getting in foul trouble....

Point taken. My point was her defensive style. All of Gabby's hops cannot make up 5" of height and ~4,653" of reach.

 

[Los24]

Los24 - lighten up.

My opinion on Gabby. If you disagree that's fine. But I never said Gabby's game is better than Lou's or Pheesa's you imply or for that matter Plum's. And who said anyone was dismissing players for NPOY. You are reading what isn't there. I was stating my belief that Gabby should be in the discussion for the Wooden Award. Nothing more, nothing less.

BTW - Gabby does have a 15 footer that she hits regularly.

And yea, if I want a team full of Gabby's that's my choice.

Huskynut - just having a Convo. Your right, that post was for everyone that is saying she is POY. She is awesome and should be on the current list of nominees. I wouldn't go so far as to to say regularly just yet, that's why when she takes that shot around foul line there is no defender around her.... She is getting there. You can take five Gabby's that's fine.

 

[NoelAustin]

Lou and Napheesa are locks for Wooden contention. They are not going to list four players from the same team. The entire argument for Gabby's inclusion concerns whether she is more deserving than Kia. Plum and others are not relevant.

 

[DaddyChoc]

if its only 3 per team... Gabby (Napheesa and Katie Lou) should replace Nurse!

 

[Icebear]

Yeah, but...I haven't seen that, yet.

I've seen teams scheme against Napheesa (complete waste of time) and Lou (beat her up while everyone else scores, instead), but haven't seen one against Gabby. Maybe they are and it is so ineffective that I can't pick it out.

The things Gabby is doing are incredibly hard to scheme against. Scheming against a shooter or ball handler is relatively straight up. Face guard, deny them the ball, take away their spots on the floor and be prepared to swap well if they try to use screens to free the player. Not so with defensive players and rebounders especially ones who jump like Williams. She presents a very unique problem. She has a solid shot in the 15" range that is frequently a gap area plus she turners the shoulder of the top of the key very well. Close down on her in that area and she kicks it out efficiently to UCONN's 3/4 3pt shooters. Gabby is tremendously effective because of the space she occupies in her skill set.

Remember the nightmare Williams was to cover for USF last year because of her hops. It is a game changing skill.

 

[CocoHusky]

if its only 3 per team... Gabby (Napheesa and Katie Lou) should replace Nurse!

It is only 3 per team and I agree with your choices.

 

[Rayvin56]

Gabulous does it all!

 

[NOI33]

So would you take Dennis Rodman over Jordan? Just asking because I really like Gabby's game, even more so because that is how I played (very athletic, active all over, cover bigger guys, good passer, steals, but.... not a great shot or offensive repertoire.)

Everyone needs to remember this is not just athletics but basketball skill set. Plum can score every which way and demand a team's defensive attention every position. She has more assists and steals, not a defensive slouch by any means. Everyone does not realize Plum's or even Lou's effect on the rest of their respective teams' players because of how opponents need to defend.

I watched the highlights of many games and no doubt Gabby is a beast but she seems to be left wide open at times and she dribbles and does a handoff. To me opponents leave her wide open and she decides to take the shot occasionally or when there is a slower opponent assigned to her (often the case) she drives to the basket with her speed. No jump shot, no 3-pt shot, and going into WNBA she is not a 4/5. Not at that level.

One question I asked in another related thread... If Gabby's overall game is better than Lou's than why did Geno start Lou last year as freshman (?) even though Gabby had a year more experience, is great defensively and arguably one of the most athletically gifted players in WCBB. I know people here will disagree but Lou is a better passer too, although Gabby is obviously very good and leads with assists. Lou's decisions result in less turnovers (and she also in-bounds) and her passes are almost always on the money, many times the ball is in her hand for a split second as she sees the pass before the play has fully developed.

Gabby is great don't get me wrong but everyone dismissing other players like its a no brainier for NPOY is a bit ridiculous. I think DNPOY makes a ton of sense with being included in the running of NPOY. I'll finish on the way I finished the other post, with the game on the line who do you want to give the ball to in order to win the game??? Lou, Plum, or Gabby? I'll take maybe even Pheese (she has many offense moves in post, consistently hit mid-range, shoot deep when open, fade away using glass, is 65% from field.... plus a great rebounder and good defender.)

Although it wasn't the key point of your response, you hit the nail on the head concerning her WNBA prospects. I would hate to think that WNBA draft position and marketability have any influence on the Awards committees, so we will pretend they don't. Just from a skills/position standpoint, Gabby is in a weird dilemma. At her size and length, she will not succeed as a post player in the league. Any team that is planning on drafting her knows this. Anyone who has even a minimal understanding of the WNBA as it stands, knows this. I recall a few members on this board (who were ostracized for having an opinion) pointing this out too.

Many will point to the success of Danielle Adams (Stars) or Alicia Clarke (Storm) as examples of undersized college post players who made a smooth transition to the league. Adams is a significantly wider player than Gabby, has immense physical strength, and has 1 or 2 inches on her. Adams developed a wide offensive repertoire at TA&M, and was therefore utilized by her WNBA team as a three-point threat. That's the key: SHE HAD A RELIABLE SHOT. Same thing goes for Clarke. Great midrange shooter and slasher (with both hands), but a very solid three-point shooter to boot. Clarke no longer plays the post, but if you watch the Storm, she often posts her man up down-low. She is a match-up problem for many teams.

As athletically gifted as Gabby Williams is, once in the WNBA, the margin of difference (athletically) between her and the other players won't be as significant. Doesn't take away from her sheer strength and ability; she is a freak of nature. However, we need to be realistic with our appraisals, and I think that's what Los24 and others are getting at. At the end of the day, as valuable as she is to UCONN, she is not a consistent offensive threat...and a lot of her production comes from the fact that the defense has to focus more on the threats posed by Lou, Kia, and Pheese.

Gabby is amazing nonetheless, and her determination to be great will hopefully facilitate the development of a more dynamic offensive skill-set in her senior year.

 

[CocoHusky]

At the end of the day, as valuable as she is to UCONN, she is not a consistent offensive threat...and a lot of her production comes from the fact that the defense has to focus more on the threats posed by Lou, Kia, and Pheese.

Those statements are incredible short sighted. Gabby is leading the team in assist from the PF position, Offensive rebounds and is 3rd in FG percentage. If the defense is that focusing on Lou, Kia, and Pheese and Gabby that would make what Gabby is doing more incredible, not less.

 

[NOI33]

Those statements are incredible short sighted. Gabby is leading the team in assist from the PF position, Offensive rebounds and is 3rd in FG percentage. If the defense is that focusing on Lou, Kia, and Pheese and Gabby that would make what Gabby is doing more incredible, not less.

The key word is consistency. Geno and the coaches have highlighted this too, and have encouraged her to expand her game. This is not short sighted; it's the truth. As I said in my post, I'm sure her determination will propel her to do so. But from what she has shown to this point, she is not a consistent OFFENSIVE threat. She is not a dynamic scorer or shooter by any means, and I don't think I have to convince you of that fact.

Of course she has a good number of assists; she is a good passer. But most importantly, the schemes set up by Geno have her at the top of the key with the play running through her, as was done with Stef Dolson.

My comment about the defense focusing on the other three is directed at those who said she is more deserving than Kia. Kia is an offensive threat and draws defenders. The same is true for the Pheese and Lou. As was previously stated here, Gabby is left wide open quite a bit, and is therefore able to collect herself and hit the open mid-range shot. That's what I was referring to when I said "production." However, you're right, she definitely produces in a number of other ways. I never took away from that.

 

[Los24]

Those statements are incredible short sighted. Gabby is leading the team in assist from the PF position, Offensive rebounds and is 3rd in FG percentage. If the defense is that focusing on Lou, Kia, and Pheese and Gabby that would make what Gabby is doing more incredible, not less.

First I think NOI33 articulated my point better than I did. Furthermore I have been uncomfortable trying to argue away any of Gabby's game, but since this is a forum and we are all UConn fans having a sports conversation I guess I will make a few more points. If you go to ESPN site where they list the current players considered for POY, almost every comment is outrage at excluding Gabby. I agree she should be on list, no doubt. However, almost all of them say she is the best player in the game. Also that she is the best on the team. A few points to consider.....

1 Gabby leads in turnovers.
2 While shooting 55% that is from someone who occasionally takes an outside shot, maybe 2 or 3 a game, with most shots at the tin. Pheese who actually shoots more shots away from the rim but also scores on cuts and rebounds, is at 65%.
3. Lou is best passer (watch the tapes, it's more than assists).
4. Lou has best shot
5. All the other core four have doubled Gabby getting to the foul line
6. Pheese has best post game
7. Lou has best overall offensive game.
8. Lou, and Kia, are main cause of spreading of floor for offense
9. Gabby has improved but she still fouls to much and is often having to play less aggressive in 2nd half of games.
10. Of the core four she the only one under 80% at the charity stripe (65%) which can be important at end of big games.
11. Pheese leads in blocks.
12. Game on line it's going to Lou... Then Kia or Pheese. Gabby will be there to rebound if they miss though.

Point is there is more to basketball than the prism many now look through in declaring she is the best PLAYER in the game. Maybe most exciting player though

 

[CocoHusky]

First I think NOI33 articulated my point better than I did. Furthermore I have been uncomfortable trying to argue away any of Gabby's game, but since this is a forum and we are all UConn fans having a sports conversation I guess I will make a few more points. If you go to ESPN site where they list the current players considered for POY, almost every comment is outrage at excluding Gabby. I agree she should be on list, no doubt. However, almost all of them say she is the best player in the game. Also that she is the best on the team. A few points to consider.....

1 Gabby leads in turnovers.
2 While shooting 55% that is from someone who occasionally takes an outside shot, maybe 2 or 3 a game, with most shots at the tin. Pheese who actually shoots more shots away from the rim but also scores on cuts and rebounds, is at 65%.
3. Lou is best passer (watch the tapes, it's more than assists).
4. Lou has best shot
5. All the other core four have doubled Gabby getting to the foul line
6. Pheese has best post game
7. Lou has best overall offensive game.
8. Lou, and Kia, are main cause of spreading of floor for offense
9. Gabby has improved but she still fouls to much and is often having to play less aggressive in 2nd half of games.
10. Of the core four she the only one under 80% at the charity stripe (65%) which can be important at end of big games.
11. Pheese leads in blocks.
12. Game on line it's going to Lou... Then Kia or Pheese. Gabby will be there to rebound if they miss though.

Point is there is more to basketball than the prism many now look through in declaring she is the best PLAYER in the game. Maybe most exciting player though

Items 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 are not quantifiable. I'm going to consider those items your opinions and disagree. The best passer on the team is the one that has the most assist- that would be Gabby. The best shot is the one that goes in most often. I don't understand why you don't want to give it up for Gabby . Guarantee I have watch more tape than you.

 

[Los24]

Items 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 are not quantifiable. I'm going to consider those items your opinions and disagree. The best passer on the team is the one that has the most assist- that would be Gabby. The best shot is the one that goes in most often. I don't understand why you don't want to give it up for Gabby . Guarantee I have watch more tape than you.

Well your wrong about what is quantifiable. The amount of foul shots and her percentage is math (and I got it from team website.) Only someone that doesn't understand basketball would not agree on Lou having the best shot or that Pheese has best post game on the team (sorry not trying to sound condensing just stating it's obvious.) Since you watch so much film go watch today's game and see that almost every basket for Gabby is a layup. I saw Lou score on post up, hit 3, pump fake dribble drive and hit mid-range pull up jumper, foul shots, etc... I saw Pheese hit 3 pointer, dominate down low, hit mid range bank shots, turns around, etc.. Again love Gabby and she is exciting, plays great defense, but sorry not going to say she is best player with a very limited offensive game. Also, most assists doesn't mean best passer. Just as the leading scorer doesn't necessarily mean best shooter. However, I wouldn't argue that point as much that her limited offensive skill set right now stops her from being the best player in the country or this team. I understand if you disagree, but I listed enough points that you should understand why I disagree (and that it's not me not giving it up for one of my favorites Gabby.)

 

[wire chief]

Well your wrong about what is quantifiable. The amount of foul shots and her percentage is math (and I got it from team website.) Only someone that doesn't understand basketball would not agree on Lou having the best shot or that Pheese has best post game on the team (sorry not trying to sound condensing just stating it's obvious.) Since you watch so much film go watch today's game and see that almost every basket for Gabby is a layup. I saw Lou score on post up, hit 3, pump fake dribble drive and hit mid-range pull up jumper, foul shots, etc... I saw Pheese hit 3 pointer, dominate down low, hit mid range bank shots, turns around, etc.. Again love Gabby and she is exciting, plays great defense, but sorry not going to say she is best player with a very limited offensive game. Also, most assists doesn't mean best passer. Just as the leading scorer doesn't necessarily mean best shooter. However, I wouldn't argue that point as much that her limited offensive skill set right now stops her from being the best player in the country or this team. I understand if you disagree, but I listed enough points that you should understand why I disagree (and that it's not me not giving it up for one of my favorites Gabby.)

If Geno says Gabby is the Lawrence Taylor of bball, who would not call that the highest praise (from the highest source)? Who would want to
argue that? If there be WNBA teams satisfied with their shooters, then add Gabby for all the uniqueness in other ways she brings.

 

[CocoHusky]

Well your wrong about what is quantifiable. The amount of foul shots and her percentage is math (and I got it from team website.) Only someone that doesn't understand basketball would not agree on Lou having the best shot or that Pheese has best post game on the team (sorry not trying to sound condensing just stating it's obvious.) Since you watch so much film go watch today's game and see that almost every basket for Gabby is a layup. I saw Lou score on post up, hit 3, pump fake dribble drive and hit mid-range pull up jumper, foul shots, etc... I saw Pheese hit 3 pointer, dominate down low, hit mid range bank shots, turns around, etc.. Again love Gabby and she is exciting, plays great defense, but sorry not going to say she is best player with a very limited offensive game. Also, most assists doesn't mean best passer. Just as the leading scorer doesn't necessarily mean best shooter. However, I wouldn't argue that point as much that her limited offensive skill set right now stops her from being the best player in the country or this team. I understand if you disagree, but I listed enough points that you should understand why I disagree (and that it's not me not giving it up for one of my favorites Gabby.)

Gabby with her "limited offensive skill" has dragged this team into history and on the brink of another National Championship. Gabby has some equally talented teammates but none have been more valuable to UCONN's proficiency this year.
Condensing doesn't work when you are so wildly inaccurate, KLS last "post up" was during the Nebraska game. I going to go out on a limb and assume that you know what a post up actually is-Not trying to be condescending either just-well maybe I was!

 

[Los24]

If Geno says Gabby is the Lawrence Taylor of bball, who would not call that the highest praise (from the highest source)? Who would want to
argue that? If there be WNBA teams satisfied with their shooters, then add Gabby for all the uniqueness in other ways she brings.

Your taking my points the wrong way. I'm not slamming Gabby. For tenth time in my posts she is great, one of the top players, best defensive player in the country...... I even said I can't think of a player we have played, many from the top programs in the country, that I would pick over her. Is that not enough praise that if I don't declare her the best of all the land there is something wrong.

That said, Lawrence Taylor is in a sport that they don't play both ways. He did not have to play offense. All I am saying is she is not the best overall player because her offense game still needs a lot of development, geez.

 

[CocoHusky]

QUOTE="Los24, post: 1992277, member: 7629"]Your taking my points the wrong way. I'm not slamming Gabby.
All I am saying is she is not the best overall player because her offense game still needs a lot of development, geez.[/QUOTE]

QUOTE="Los24, post: 1991832, member: 7629"] love Gabby and she is exciting, plays great defense, but sorry not going to say she is best player with a very limited offensive game. Also, most assists doesn't mean best passer. [/QUOTE]

1 Gabby leads in turnovers.
2 While shooting 55% that is from someone who occasionally takes an outside shot, maybe 2 or 3 a game, with most shots at the tin.
5. All the other core four have doubled Gabby getting to the foul line
9. Gabby has improved but she still fouls to much and is often having to play less aggressive in 2nd half of games.
10. Of the core four she (Gabby) the only one under 80% at the charity stripe (65%) which can be important at end of big games.
12. Game on line it's going to Lou... Then Kia or Pheese. Gabby will be there to rebound if they miss though.

 

[Los24]

Gabby with her "limited offensive skill" has dragged this team into history and on the brink of another National Championship. Gabby has some equally talented teammates but none have been more valuable to UCONN's proficiency this year.
Condensing doesn't work when you are so wildly inaccurate, KLS last "post up" was during the Nebraska game. I going to go out on a limb and assume that you know what a post up actually is-Not trying to be condescending either just-well maybe I was!

Now I know you don't know what your talking about when you declare that Gabby "dragged" this team like its all her and she's the sole reason we are undefeated. Talk about wildly inaccurate statements. There are games that one by Lou, Pheese, and even Kia and Crystal. I recall her on the bench in the first two games and not being able to leverage her best asset defense, in the second half of Maryland.

So let's look at what Wikipedia have to say about post up:. To "post up" is to establish a position in the low post, the area near the basket below the foul line, usually in order to take advantage of a smaller defender. The offensive player usually faces away from the basket, so that his body can protect the ball from the defender.

Most definitions state it's about sealing your player in the post, some mention back to basket. I assume this is where your sarcasm comes from.

Another definition from Urban side:
Basketball term where a big man like Shaq goes down low (near the basket, establishes a good position, pins his man with his body and asks for the ball.

That is exactly what Lou did on a play yesterday. She doesn't have to have her back to basket nor do I care if it's in the paint or the technically defined post or low block.

Moreover you don't address the actual point that both Pheese and Lou have far superior offense repertoires. What about the other 5 ways she can score. Pick one minor example you feel like you can discredit the larger point. I don't care if the term doesn't apply either, she took an opponent down low and scored from paint/post area.

Also both Low and Pheese play above average defense (Lou has pushed herself and improved with 50% more steals than Kia who is a steller defender, and I am not saying she is a better defender than Kia, just that she is getting better) with Pheese being a plus plus defender....

I also recall many Geno interviews where all he talked about was Lou and Pheese, as many as he gushed over Gabby deservingly so...

This is a useless argument because I would take Gabby in a second to start my team but somehow stating she has a limited offense game and is not #1 player offends some people. I apologized if it does, but that is my opinion I was trying to provide details on why that is.

 

[Los24]

QUOTE="Los24, post: 1992277, member: 7629"]Your taking my points the wrong way. I'm not slamming Gabby.
All I am saying is she is not the best overall player because her offense game still needs a lot of development, geez.

QUOTE="Los24, post: 1991832, member: 7629"] love Gabby and she is exciting, plays great defense, but sorry not going to say she is best player with a very limited offensive game. Also, most assists doesn't mean best passer. [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Please also post the multiple times I said she was awesome, one of the best players in the country, etc... I was supporting my opinion with that list since some folks jumped on me for suggesting she still needs to improve to be the best overall player.

 

[CocoHusky]

Now I know you don't know what your talking about when you declare that Gabby "dragged" this team like its all her and she's the sole reason we are undefeated.
So let's look at what Wikipedia have to say about post up:. To "post up" is to establish a position in the low post, the area near the basket below the foul line, usually in order to take advantage of a smaller defender. The offensive player usually faces away from the basket, so that his body can protect the ball from the defender.

Most definitions state it's about sealing your player in the post, some mention back to basket. I assume this is where your sarcasm comes from.

Another definition from Urban side:
Basketball term where a big man like Shaq goes down low (near the basket, establishes a good position, pins his man with his body and asks for the ball.

That is exactly what Lou did on a play yesterday. She doesn't have to have her back to basket nor do I care if it's in the paint or the technically defined post or low block.

Moreover you don't address the actual point that both Pheese and Lou have far superior offense repertoires. What about the other 5 ways she can score. Pick one minor example you feel like you can discredit the larger point. I don't care if the term doesn't apply either, she took an opponent down low and scored from paint/post area.

Also both Low and Pheese play above average defense (Lou has pushed herself and improved with 50% more steals than Kia who is a steller defender, and I am not saying she is a better defender than Kia, just that she is getting better) with Pheese being a plus plus defender....

I also recall many Geno interviews where all he talked about was Lou and Pheese, as many as he gushed over Gabby deservingly so...

This is a useless argument because I would take Gabby in a second to start my team but somehow stating she has a limited offense game and is not #1 player offends some people. I apologized if it does, but that is my opinion I was trying to provide details on why that is.

Never said Gabby was the sole reason we are undefeated- said exactly the opposite. You consulting "Wikipedia" for a definition of a post up is mind blowing.