Effect of the Big Ten moving East.

[Fishy]

1) It probably crippled or killed whatever chances the ACC Network had of seeing the light of day.

2) They've punted the ACC from recruiting the mid-Atlantic.

Additional note: Rutgers recruiting in the region has suffered since joining the Big Ten, but that could be a function of just more concentrated incompetence than normal.

The two missteps of realignment were the Big 12 failing to grab UL and Cincinnati and the ACC letting the Big Ten roll through the mid-Atlantic to the coast. As much of an athletic tragedy as Rutgers is and has been, you can't argue the demographics of the state of New Jersey and how much better the ACC's prospects of a network would have been had they not ceded 15,000,000 people and the NY/DC media markets to the Big Ten.

The bottom of the Big 12 probably opted to appease Texas and accept only West Virginia instead of backing Oklahoma and more expansion - that will likely haunt them. The ACC probably spent too much time listening to their loud, but option-limited southern tier and bumbled into this current fix - that is haunting them.

 

[ruthetiger]

You're telling the truth when it comes to us. I acknowledge that. Recruiting has suffered because largely, we've ahot ourselves in the foot given perfect opportunities.

With regards to the ACC, they have been crippled by taking Syracuse and Pitt, more so Syracuse. The funny thing is I don't know where conference realignment is going at this point, but the general consensus seems to be that it's going to 64 teams total.

 

[ruthetiger]

And just a question here or 2...do you feel the ACC made an error in judgement with their choices? And is it the opinion that because of this jusgement, they may not last long as a conference with the semi addition of Notre Dame?

 

[noeynox]

Delaney took all of the other commissioners lunch money. I think he actually felt bad for Marinatto and tried to help him when he told him he needed to start thinking more strategically. I could not believe Marinatto actually said that publicly, but ultimately his strategy consisted of sending the Big 12 commissioner roses.

That he could not build consensus among his schools to take ESPN's billion dollar offer was a colossal failure.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

With regards to the ACC, they have been crippled by taking Syracuse and Pitt, more so Syracuse. The funny thing is I don't know where conference realignment is going at this point, but the general consensus seems to be that it's going to 64 teams total.

Outside of VA & NC, which the B1G and SEC would love to get their hands on, the ACC model has been to take secondary schools in each market (Pitt < Penn St, G Tech < Georgia, Louisville < Kentucky, UConn < BC [LOL]), etc. which is a disaster when it comes to TV markets.

As for the end game, I agree that it will be the P4; but, it will be more than 64 teams due to politics and reality. Likely, each conference will have between 16 and 20 members, so between 64 and 80 total P4 programs.

 

[billybud]

....it is true that the ACC was not focused on cable boxes. The ESPN model at the time (and ESPN owns the ACC) was one of national viewing and ratings on a national channel. The network channel model is about cable boxes. The ACC has good exposure...it is really the burgeoning success of the BTN and SECN and the ensuing revenue that has an impact.

....it is true that the southern ACC schools did not want to become more northeastern in orientation (quite naturally in my opinion). Blame that on the UNC cabal who made sure that it is Clemson and FSU who travel to both Syracuse and Boston (not UNC or Duke or GT). Add another northeast program and it would go to the FSU-Clemson side of the board. There was an uprising against Tobacco Road led by FSU and Clemson with appropriate sabre rattling. It was FSU who had traveled on a Thursday night 8 out of 10 years (to Boston, Cuse, UNC) while UNC didn't travel over 50 miles for a Thursday game and that only twice. The ACC scheduling had coaches and fans fuming

....I don't know about recruiting the Mid Atlantic (Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York) and future inpact. Virginia and south is the primary area for southern school recruiting and I do not follow BC nor Cuse. I notice Maryland's 2016 class does not include a recruit from the Mid Atlantic other than from Maryland. I am sure that New Jersey has been cherry picked in the past...three of FSU's offensive starters last year were from Jersey (but that includes a Penn State transfer) and a JUCO guy.

....The effect that unbundling will have on future cable box model networks is still uncertain...what is certain is that ESPN will do something if it makes a buck, and won't if it is a monetary loser.

.....In the short term, will the football programs of the ACC be affected much by not going northeast? Too early to tell. Recruiting? Certainly not yet....Duke's class is rated higher than Penn State's. Harbaugh will do a great job at Michigan in terms of recruiting and will go where he can get the athletes. FSU and Clemson will continue to bring in athletes as will Ohio State and Michigan State.

 

[upstater]

While I agree with Fishy's post, I can't agree with the article.

I don't know what happened between 2007-2013 to make the ACC recruit so well in the mid-Atlantic, but the swift change in the region has a lot to do with Penn State returning to its normal recruiting grounds in NJ and Maryland. I don't see anything strange here. That region has always been aligned with the B1G.

 

[NYUConn]

While I agree with Fishy's post, I can't agree with the article.

I don't know what happened between 2007-2013 to make the ACC recruit so well in the mid-Atlantic, but the swift change in the region has a lot to do with Penn State returning to its normal recruiting grounds in NJ and Maryland. I don't see anything strange here. That region has always been aligned with the B1G.

Have to agree with this. Having grown up in NJ, Penn State and the B1G as a whole was always owned NJ HS football. Every kid I played with growing up dreamed of either playing at Penn State or Notre Dame (lotta Irish-Americans in my neighborhood).

The best player my HS ever produced chose freakin' Iowa over Boston College, UVA and UNC.

 

[billybud]

I just went through the 2011 ESPN 300 (200 in 2011) looking for New Jersey recruits in ESPN 300 (200 at time) and where they went...three in the top 200 (2 to Penn State and 1 to Rutgers).


2008 ESPN 300 (200) had three from NJ...1 to Florida, 1 to Oklahoma, 1 to Rutgers.
2010 ESPN 300 (200) had one from New Jersey...went to BC

Easily googled....

 

[Dooley]

And in my opinion, allowing the B12 to move into our corridor would be as equally a big mistake for both conferences.

 

[SubbaBub]

The ACC was thinking with their little head. The B1G was thinking with their big one.

Today it seems so ridiculous that the ACC would pick Cuse and BC/Pitt over RU and UConn.

 

[Dooley]

The ACC is going through the same kacky tease flirtation with ND that the Big East did for years. Holding out false hope that they will join full time so they can launch a network. And until they do, they are stuck in quicksand because they didn't add the necessary markets in either expansion periods.

 

[Adios]

The Big Ten NEEDED the coastline to keep up with the SEC. Seeing there's kids already choosing Iowa over UNC and UVA, the Big Ten had the clout to do what needed to be done. It was inevitable.

 

[SellersElbow]

I believe the B10 whispered to Rutgers that they were in as long as they met some milestones, and thereby locked them up years before the ACC seriously considered such an expansion target (as has been more or less revealed at this point). The ACC may well have covertly reached out to RU when they were considering 'Cuse and company, but were rebuffed in favor of the much sweeter landing spot that was already lined up.

I like this storyline because it feeds my hope that the same situation played out when the ACC approached us before settling on the academic juggernaut from Louisville, KY.

 

[Waquoit]

But what about us? How does this burst of reality help us?

 

[Marty Jackson]

1) It probably crippled or killed whatever chances the ACC Network had of seeing the light of day.

2) They've punted the ACC from recruiting the mid-Atlantic.

Additional note: Rutgers recruiting in the region has suffered since joining the Big Ten, but that could be a function of just more concentrated incompetence than normal.

The two missteps of realignment were the Big 12 failing to grab UL and Cincinnati and the ACC letting the Big Ten roll through the mid-Atlantic to the coast. As much of an athletic tragedy as Rutgers is and has been, you can't argue the demographics of the state of New Jersey and how much better the ACC's prospects of a network would have been had they not ceded 15,000,000 people and the NY/DC media markets to the Big Ten.

The bottom of the Big 12 probably opted to appease Texas and accept only West Virginia instead of backing Oklahoma and more expansion - that will likely haunt them. The ACC probably spent too much time listening to their loud, but option-limited southern tier and bumbled into this current fix - that is haunting them.

Agree although I think we're still in the 'too early to tell' phase. A lot of conferences now have their own Penn State examples to learn from.

 

[dwalks93]

Bottom line is the biggest mistake in conference realignment has been hesitating to expand. The conferences that have succeeded in expansion have a unified chain of command through the Conference Commissioner. The Big10 and SEC have strong commissioners and, when presented an opportunity, they snatched it. The ACC and Big12 have weak leadership, who cannot sell a vision to their member schools, and are slow to react to opportunities.

The ACC should have grabbed Rutgers and UConn (maybe even WVU and Cincy.) The Big12 should have grabbed Louisville/Cincy. Both the ACC and Big12 showed an inability to retain their programs and an unwillingness to seize opportunities to add new programs. Life is hard if you are dumb...but dumb and slow is unrecoverable.

UConn will eventually get into a P5 conference and the conferences that fail to add UConn will later regret it. At the P5 conference level there appears to be a lot more regret about "not adding" than regret about "adding" later. There are probably 3 or 4 current programs in the G5 who will eventually be in the P5...a wise conference would pick who its wants first.

 

[Ldandy]

....it is true that the ACC was not focused on cable boxes. The ESPN model at the time (and ESPN owns the ACC) was one of national viewing and ratings on a national channel. The network channel model is about cable boxes. The ACC has good exposure...it is really the burgeoning success of the BTN and SECN and the ensuing revenue that has an impact.

....it is true that the southern ACC schools did not want to become more northeastern in orientation (quite naturally in my opinion). Blame that on the UNC cabal who made sure that it is Clemson and FSU who travel to both Syracuse and Boston (not UNC or Duke or GT). Add another northeast program and it would go to the FSU-Clemson side of the board. There was an uprising against Tobacco Road led by FSU and Clemson with appropriate sabre rattling. It was FSU who had traveled on a Thursday night 8 out of 10 years (to Boston, Cuse, UNC) while UNC didn't travel over 50 miles for a Thursday game and that only twice. The ACC scheduling had coaches and fans fuming

....I don't know about recruiting the Mid Atlantic (Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York) and future inpact. Virginia and south is the primary area for southern school recruiting and I do not follow BC nor Cuse. I notice Maryland's 2016 class does not include a recruit from the Mid Atlantic other than from Maryland. I am sure that New Jersey has been cherry picked in the past...three of FSU's offensive starters last year were from Jersey (but that includes a Penn State transfer) and a JUCO guy.

....The effect that unbundling will have on future cable box model networks is still uncertain...what is certain is that ESPN will do something if it makes a buck, and won't if it is a monetary loser.

.....In the short term, will the football programs of the ACC be affected much by not going northeast? Too early to tell. Recruiting? Certainly not yet....Duke's class is rated higher than Penn State's. Harbaugh will do a great job at Michigan in terms of recruiting and will go where he can get the athletes. FSU and Clemson will continue to bring in athletes as will Ohio State and Michigan State.

Its very easy to play with numbers. People always select the set of data that portrays them in the best light. Duke's class may be rated higher than Penn State's on some service, but not if you go by 247's Composite Ranking. This ranking is derived from an average of the four major recruiting services. Using this wider survey, Penn State is currently ranked 14 and Duke is ranked 30. This is with Penn State currently having a class of 17 and Duke 20. Avg Ranking PSU 89.58. Duke 86.09. For comparisons sake FSU is a hair higher than PSU at 90.33 but with a class of 20.

 

[CL82]

Sooo, did anyone else see the title of this thread and think "Aww, duckck Delaney took someone else? We're screwed."

 

[Carl Spackler]

The question, is whether or not the big10 has built enough of a northeastern / NYC footprint to command maximun $ as they come up on restructuring.negotiating a new media deal for the conference.

It continues to boggle my mind how any of these people that make decisions think they can command market presence without UCONN.

The ACC obviously didn't get it. The Big East had it, but fumbled it away thinking that football would not be the ultimate primary decision focus.


The big 10 is somewhat close but without UCONN athletics - football, men's and women's basketball, and hockey - is basically holding Michigan alumni events on the east coast.

 

[billybud]

Its very easy to play with numbers. People always select the set of data that portrays them in the best light. Duke's class may be rated higher than Penn State's on some service, but not if you go by 247's Composite Ranking. This ranking is derived from an average of the four major recruiting services. Using this wider survey, Penn State is currently ranked 14 and Duke is ranked 30. This is with Penn State currently having a class of 17 and Duke 20. Avg Ranking PSU 89.58. Duke 86.09. For comparisons sake FSU is a hair higher than PSU at 90.33 but with a class of 20.

I always use Rivals...Rivals uses only the top 20 ranked recruits in a class so that class size has less impact than quality.

FSU's class in 247 is ranked #4 while PSU's is #14.....true, pSU may catch some more points with more athletes..I expect FSU to finish with about seven more than the 20 they have now.

 

[NYUConn]

The question, is whether or not the big10 has built enough of a northeastern / NYC footprint to command maximun $ as they come up on restructuring.negotiating a new media deal for the conference.

It continues to boggle my mind how any of these people that make decisions think they can command market presence without UCONN.

The ACC obviously didn't get it. The Big East had it, but fumbled it away thinking that football would not be the ultimate primary decision focus.


The big 10 is somewhat close but without UCONN athletics - football, men's and women's basketball, and hockey - is basically holding Michigan alumni events on the east coast.

You have to think that the 14.4 million New Englanders matter.

Nobody is reaching them right now. BC is a small private school with a dumpster fire sports program in a conference without a network.

They are up for grabs right now. Add UConn and your bringing a B1G network with top level football and basketball as well as an emerging hockey conference that will attract eye balls in a hockey-crazy region.

I get all the reasons why UConn isn't in the B1G yet, but the one thing that has always confused me is how a guy like DeLaney who is as laser-focused as anyone at bringing more eyeballs and subsequently more ad revenue to his network hasn't struck inside New England yet.

 

[billybud]

Got to convince the bees.

In my ancestral homeland of Wilcox County, Alabama, they say..."They think they're sweet, but the bees don't know it".

Been some buzzing lately, so maybe the bees are homing in.

 

[Carl Spackler]

You have to think that the 14.4 million New Englanders matter.

Nobody is reaching them right now. BC is a small private school with a dumpster fire sports program in a conference without a network.

They are up for grabs right now. Add UConn and your bringing a B1G network with top level football and basketball as well as an emerging hockey conference that will attract eye balls in a hockey-crazy region.

I get all the reasons why UConn isn't in the B1G yet, but the one thing that has always confused me is how a guy like DeLaney who is as laser-focused as anyone at bringing more eyeballs and subsequently more ad revenue to his network hasn't struck inside New England yet.

There was a time when Syracuse in the Big10 was a legit issue of discussion. Penn State was an outlier for years and years. There has not been an all sports conference at the highest division of football in the northeast since the ivy league dropped out. Division 1A / FBS football means a lot of other sports too. The big schools were always independants in football until the early 1990s.

The big east, did what it did, and Penn State went to the big 10, and every single other division1A athletic department which included UCONN as of 2000, left the big east for conferences based elsewhere and scattered.

The best things that ever happened to the UCONN athletic department and conttibuted to the growth if the school was in succession, basketball success in thd big east, upgrading to 1A football in the big east, and the upgrading hockey to Hockey East.

The big10 is the conference that has the best options to build a northeastern corridor conference, but they're not going to extend reach beyond midwestern large college alumni without at least two parts of the tri-state puzzle. Maryland isn't bringing it, and just signifies thevMason-Dixon line. University of New Jersey is just a placeholder and scheduling opportunity for midwestern alumni without travel long distance.

UCONN gives the conference competitive basketball in the mecca - football scheduling in the NYC area and New England draw, and would put Big10 hockey squarely in the middle of northeastern hockey recruiting and new england hockey fans.

Its really the logical thing for the big10 to do. Kansas and UCONN. 16 teams. 2 divisions. Conference basketball and hockry championships in Madison Square Garden. Football championship at one of the NYC venues.

 

[dayooper]

Its really the logical thing for the big10 to do. Kansas and UCONN. 16 teams. 2 divisions. Conference basketball and hockry championships in Madison Square Garden. Football championship at one of the NYC venues.

Couldn't disagree with this part more. Almost every aspect of it. The rest is great!

The logical adds for the Big10 that they could actually get (and that's still in debate) is not UConn and Kansas. It's UConn and Oklahoma. Out of the pool of realistic candidates, Oklahoma is the best add. They are a traditional power that is still extremely relevant. While I doubt that OU would get the BTN in Texas, they do have draw in the Dallas market. While the Big10 likes it's basketball, it's still a football conference. Marketing Oklahoma games against national teams like Michigan, OSU and PSU would be a boon. Renewing the rivalry between OU and UNL would make for great TV. A line up of rivalry games the Saturday after Thanksgiving including Michigan/OSU at Noon, PSU/MSU at 3:30 and OU/Nebraska at 8:00? A marketers dream. With OU and UConn, you get the national exposure of a football king, and a double down on the NYC market with some exposure in the NE (not convinced that UConn alone would bring the entire NE).

As far as having the basketball and hockey championships every year at the Garden? It might be great for the marketing in NYC, but it would come at the expense of your core fanbase. A rotating schedule like the one that they will going forward with, is great. To have the championships that far away from your students every year is bad business. The old guard is already angry at the additions of Rutgers and Maryland. Moving your championships that far away every year will make them angrier.