Colin Cowherd and Jason Whitlock

[upstater]

The age matrix has worked out pretty well for my kid. She was not only playing up, but she was born in June, which made her last on the calendar year for the old matrix. So she was sometimes going against players 23 months older than her.

 

[meyers7]

Last weekend the ref kept calling heading. He kept forgetting which age group he was reffing. We had five drop balls.

It's not always so easy when you are jumping ages and leagues to remember which one you're doing. Especially on like your 4th/6th game of the day.

Some of the leagues go with no heading at U12, just for the fact that many kids/teams do play up. So you don't know if the players are U11 or U12.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Yea, there was no change to the throw-in. Not really even a new interpretation. It was always supposed to be ok for there to be spin on the ball.

Now if we could get refs to call handling and offside like it's supposed to be called.

Could be worse. My local high school lost the state sectional final on PK's after a 2-2 score during the first 90 and OT. Issue was they were up 2-1 with 5 minutes left and had their 3rd goal disallowed due to an offsides call on a throw-in: a throw-in of about 20 yards into the box that was then directly headed in. The referee quickly realized he made a mistake, looked at his linesman (who had not called offside) and then changed the call to a push in the box. Needless to say, that did not go over well.

 

[meyers7]

Last year, a sideline ref called a goal off a corner kick in a 1 goal loss game for my kid's team. The ball was kicked out of the box by a player guarding the far post. Our coach, who never questions refs, had a talk at halftime with the sideline guy. The sideline guy made a hand motion like the ball had somehow swerved in and then come out of the net--from a corner kick!! We all saw that didn't happen--the laws of physics still applied. I called it the magic corner kick theory, Leo H. Osvaldo.

The way you explain it, it seems possible to me. ?? The ball swerved into the goal (seen that numerous times on a corner kick) and the kid on the post cleared it out from inside the goal. Now whether that happened or not, it may have been what the AR saw. Or thought he saw and was trying to explain. Maybe??

Funny thing on the physics comment. A couple of years ago I was doing a playoff game, U12 or U13 boys I think. Had a ball cross the line that the GK scooped back out. My AR made the call of a good goal. Kids, parents all complained. One lady must have thought the ball was on the outside of the net or something, because she told us it was physically impossible for the ball to get into the goal. She made the comment "you guys don't know physics". Funny part, other than parents in general, was I work with my AR and he is an engineer and probably has taken a physics class or two in college. We got a good laugh out of that one.

 

[upstater]

The way you explain it, it seems possible to me. ?? The ball swerved into the goal (seen that numerous times on a corner kick) and the kid on the post cleared it out from inside the goal. Now whether that happened or not, it may have been what the AR saw. Or thought he saw and was trying to explain. Maybe??

Funny thing on the physics comment. A couple of years ago I was doing a playoff game, U12 or U13 boys I think. Had a ball cross the line that the GK scooped back out. My AR made the call of a good goal. Kids, parents all complained. One lady must have thought the ball was on the outside of the net or something, because she told us it was physically impossible for the ball to get into the goal. She made the comment "you guys don't know physics". Funny part, other than parents in general, was I work with my AR and he is an engineer and probably has taken a physics class or two in college. We got a good laugh out of that one.

The defender guarding the far post was not in the goal. The ref swerved his hand, an S motion, to show what he thought the ball did.

 

[meyers7]

Could be worse. My local high school lost the state sectional final on PK's after a 2-2 score during the first 90 and OT. Issue was they were up 2-1 with 5 minutes left and had their 3rd goal disallowed due to an offsides call on a throw-in: a throw-in of about 20 yards into the box that was then directly headed in. The referee quickly realized he made a mistake, looked at his linesman (who had not called offside) and then changed the call to a push in the box. Needless to say, that did not go over well.

We had close call in our (my local HS) Regional Championship (ended 0-0, lost on PKs). But there was one play where our GK caught the ball right on the goal line and he had at least one foot inside the goal. CR and AR had a long discussion on whether the ball had crossed the line or not. I've talked to the CR and he said the AR couldn't/wouldn't give him a certain on whether the ball crossed the line or not. Said he got "might have", "it was close", "not sure" out of him and said "well we're not giving the goal unless you're certain". But like I said we ended up losing anyway so it didn't matter. Although we did have a goal bang off the crossbar in ET. Sooo close.

 

[meyers7]

The defender guarding the far post was not in the goal. The ref swerved his hand, an S motion, to show what he thought the ball did.

Oh, yea well, refs, what a gonna do?

Thought maybe he was swerving his hand in like a coming back from offside motion.

 

[Excalibur]

The age matrix has worked out pretty well for my kid. She was not only playing up, but she was born in June, which made her last on the calendar year for the old matrix. So she was sometimes going against players 23 months older than her.

It's worked out for us as well, but even without that I don't get the complaints. There will be an adjustment period and then everything will go on without an issue. And flighting will always be an issue so long as certain towns/clubs are made up of parents who specialize in removing obstacles to their childrens' success . . .

 

[ZooCougar]

Age group change worked out well for Riley. He's on a team with some classmates and gets way more minutes and starts on his new team. Sometimes we have to drive an hour each way for league and tournaments so this made it more worthwhile.

He plays in the Heartland league in KC. His team was new so they had to join in the lowest division and their team and one other crushes everyone by 5-10 goals a game. I think the goal differential is 36 last I checked.

So in the spring season if they don't get promoted to a more appropriate division they won't bother with the league.

What's funny is that in tournaments they beat teams in the 4th, 5th and 6th division who have paid coaches and are "Academies".

 

[ZooCougar]

Oh, yea well, refs, what a gonna do?

Thought maybe he was swerving his hand in like a coming back from offside motion.

Totally different question.

We had a tournament final last weekend that went to PKs.

On the other team a player kicked and missed the goal entirely before the ref blew the whistle. The ref allowed him to retake the kick. Is that correct?

 

[Chuck]

The way you explain it, it seems possible to me. ?? The ball swerved into the goal (seen that numerous times on a corner kick) and the kid on the post cleared it out from inside the goal. Now whether that happened or not, it may have been what the AR saw. Or thought he saw and was trying to explain. Maybe??

Funny thing on the physics comment. A couple of years ago I was doing a playoff game, U12 or U13 boys I think. Had a ball cross the line that the GK scooped back out. My AR made the call of a good goal. Kids, parents all complained. One lady must have thought the ball was on the outside of the net or something, because she told us it was physically impossible for the ball to get into the goal. She made the comment "you guys don't know physics". Funny part, other than parents in general, was I work with my AR and he is an engineer and probably has taken a physics class or two in college. We got a good laugh out of that one.

Parents and coaches can be [word that would be filtered]. I should know, I play both roles! In general, I've only had two issues with refs that went beyond "you missed that one!" Both involved refs that didn't understand the age group they were dealing with and had Napoleonic complex. One would only use hand signals for calls in a Girls U9 game. The girls on both teams were confused and he yelled at them "if you don't know the hand signals, maybe you should be playing rec!" thing on so many levels (intimidating and demeaning the girls, insulting rec.) We had it out and the opposing coach calmed me down and said they've asked never to have him as a ref again. The other threatened to give our U11 boys yellow cards (the whole team) because they said "no more goals" to each other when we went up 7 (we get fined if we win by more than 7 and we were already playing a man down to even things up). She felt that saying "no more goals" was unsportsmanlike and said our kids needed to be taught a lesson. I asked her if they needed to be taught secret words or hand signals to communicate.

A few other humorous (or not) ref stories:

• My assistant coach for U9 Girls was a football player growing up. He knew very little about soccer. He didn't understand the nuances of offsides. At least three times he yelled "offsides" at the ref. Each time I explained to him why it wasn't offsides. On the fourth time the ref came running over and yelled "do you even know what offsides is!" The assistant took his medicine and said "actually, my coach has told me that I don't, and I promise to shut up."
• The same assistant, in a great close game, yelled at his daughter to "get your a__ moving!" The ref stopped the game and started pulling out a yellow for me. I explained that it was my assistant and that was only motivating his own daughter. He agreed to hold the card but threatened to go red if he heard anything again.
• The other one seems funny now, but wasn't at the time. We played the U8 team of an academy with nationally ranked teams. Their U8 players were destroying everyone at a tournament. We were hanging with them so they started playing a lot harder. They were slide tackling which wasn't allowed in our league. Our 7 year olds were falling all over the field. To be clear, the slide tackles were generally clean. Our coach calmly asked the ref at least 5 times if slide tackling was allowed. He said no, but he didn't see any slide tackles. He was clearly intimidated by the other team's uniforms. In the second half, tied 3-3 our star player had a breakaway. He got tackled from behind and went down crying. He slapped the ball away from his head while he was on the ground. The ref blew the whistle and called him for a hand ball. Our kids mom was a hothead and she ran on the field to yell at the ref. Two of our dads went on the field to pull her away. Three of the other team's parents ran on the field to protect their kids. The other coach pulled the team off the field. My son still claims they forfeited and he won. In the end, our parents were at fault (they aren't with the team anymore), but the ref let it get to a breaking point.

 

[Chuck]

Totally different question.

We had a tournament final last weekend that went to PKs.

On the other team a player kicked and missed the goal entirely before the ref blew the whistle. The ref allowed him to retake the kick. Is that correct?

We've never done PKs, but during regular PKs I've seen it happen twice. I believe that's the right call and it would've worked the other way also. If he made it, it wouldn't have counted. Somehow, it always works out that the opposite happens on the second attempt (a make then a miss or vice versa).

 

[upstater]

What's funny is that in tournaments they beat teams in the 4th, 5th and 6th division who have paid coaches and are "Academies".

This happens with some of the academies around here too. They have Red, White and Blue teams, 3 different levels. Or Elite/Premier.

Our club doesn't have these, they just cut kids from the top flight teams, and the coaches are paid. They are thrifty though and have managed to keep costs down relatively, despite hiring coaches from Europe to do this (mainly UK, Spain, Ireland, Portugal). This is our first year with them and now I'm starting to see some of the extra $$ seep in. For instance, they are "sponsored" by Adidas, but the uniform package is incredibly expensive. Also, when 2 kids were ID'd from the team (one was my own) to go to a regional tryout for the regional team (by region, I mean Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Southern Ontario), they asked all the players (20 total) to purchase a $60 training jacket with our sponsor's patch (Bayern Munich). Is that really necessary? Luckily, the 9 ID sessions only cost an extra $40, which isn't bad at all.

 

[upstater]

Totally different question.

We had a tournament final last weekend that went to PKs.

On the other team a player kicked and missed the goal entirely before the ref blew the whistle. The ref allowed him to retake the kick. Is that correct?

Only if they're 5 years old. Haha.

 

[upstater]

Parents and coaches can be [word that would be filtered]. I should know, I play both roles! In general, I've only had two issues with refs that went beyond "you missed that one!" Both involved refs that didn't understand the age group they were dealing with and had Napoleonic complex. One would only use hand signals for calls in a Girls U9 game. The girls on both teams were confused and he yelled at them "if you don't know the hand signals, maybe you should be playing rec!" thing on so many levels (intimidating and demeaning the girls, insulting rec.) We had it out and the opposing coach calmed me down and said they've asked never to have him as a ref again. The other threatened to give our U11 boys yellow cards (the whole team) because they said "no more goals" to each other when we went up 7 (we get fined if we win by more than 7 and we were already playing a man down to even things up). She felt that saying "no more goals" was unsportsmanlike and said our kids needed to be taught a lesson. I asked her if they needed to be taught secret words or hand signals to communicate.

A few other humorous (or not) ref stories:

• My assistant coach for U9 Girls was a football player growing up. He knew very little about soccer. He didn't understand the nuances of offsides. At least three times he yelled "offsides" at the ref. Each time I explained to him why it wasn't offsides. On the fourth time the ref came running over and yelled "do you even know what offsides is!" The assistant took his medicine and said "actually, my coach has told me that I don't, and I promise to shut up."
• The same assistant, in a great close game, yelled at his daughter to "get your a__ moving!" The ref stopped the game and started pulling out a yellow for me. I explained that it was my assistant and that was only motivating his own daughter. He agreed to hold the card but threatened to go red if he heard anything again.
• The other one seems funny now, but wasn't at the time. We played the U8 team of an academy with nationally ranked teams. Their U8 players were destroying everyone at a tournament. We were hanging with them so they started playing a lot harder. They were slide tackling which wasn't allowed in our league. Our 7 year olds were falling all over the field. To be clear, the slide tackles were generally clean. Our coach calmly asked the ref at least 5 times if slide tackling was allowed. He said no, but he didn't see any slide tackles. He was clearly intimidated by the other team's uniforms. In the second half, tied 3-3 our star player had a breakaway. He got tackled from behind and went down crying. He slapped the ball away from his head while he was on the ground. The ref blew the whistle and called him for a hand ball. Our kids mom was a hothead and she ran on the field to yell at the ref. Two of our dads went on the field to pull her away. Three of the other team's parents ran on the field to protect their kids. The other coach pulled the team off the field. My son still claims they forfeited and he won. In the end, our parents were at fault (they aren't with the team anymore), but the ref let it get to a breaking point.

I almost can't blame her. Kids can get injured. How can you blame a parent?

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Last year, a sideline ref called a goal off a corner kick in a 1 goal loss game for my kid's team. The ball was kicked out of the box by a player guarding the far post. Our coach, who never questions refs, had a talk at halftime with the sideline guy. The sideline guy made a hand motion like the ball had somehow swerved in and then come out of the net--from a corner kick!! We all saw that didn't happen--the laws of physics still applied. I called it the magic corner kick theory, Leo H. Osvaldo.

Last year, I had a 4th grade travel player on my U10 Rec team. Twice during the season off a corner he nailed the far top corner for a goal. One night after practice, we stayed behind and tried doing the same ourselves. Was not happening and both of us played HS soccer back in the day

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Parents and coaches can be [word that would be filtered]. I should know, I play both roles! In general, I've only had two issues with refs that went beyond "you missed that one!"

• The other one seems funny now, but wasn't at the time. He got tackled from behind and went down crying.

I can deal with offside, ball/strikes, and fouls in basketball calmly as its a game. I have been really heated only 3 times in the last 6 years of coaching and two of the three where over player safety. The first was my example of one team slide tacking and taking my players out when slide tackling was not allowed. A second was in baseball when I had the winning run ruled out in the bottom of the inning because he ran out of the baseline between 3rd and Home to avoid running over the opposing Catcher who was blocking the basepath without the ball. I was told by the opposing coach and the Umpire its only obstruction if contact is made, which is 1) incorrect and 2) I am not ordering a 9 year old to try and run over another player in baseball. Afterwards, I found nice video clip on the official Little League website for umpires that clearly states contact is not required and sent it to both. The last was in basketball when the U10 Rec Coordinator decided that since his team beat my team twice in the regular season (by 12 and then by 2), there was no need for a championship game between the top two teams (his team was 10-0, mine was 8-2) and declared his team the champion and cancelled the already scheduled championship game. I love coaching the kids. Dealing with the other BS, less so.

 

[meyers7]

Totally different question.

We had a tournament final last weekend that went to PKs.

On the other team a player kicked and missed the goal entirely before the ref blew the whistle. The ref allowed him to retake the kick. Is that correct?

Yes that would be correct. For PK's (actually called Kicks From The Mark - cause there is no penalty), the Ref is supposed to by procedure blow the whistle before each kick. The kicker can be Cautioned if they don't follow the instructions of waiting til the whistle. But usually it's just a "wait for the whistle" warning.

Quite a few years ago I was watching a playoff game and saw a kid (U14) go before the whistle twice, before doing it correctly the third time. Didn't get Cautioned, just talked to. Buried it in the back of the net all three times for the win (last kicker). A few years later he was captaining his HS team. Nerves of steel.

 

[ZooCougar]

This happens with some of the academies around here too. They have Red, White and Blue teams, 3 different levels. Or Elite/Premier.

Our club doesn't have these, they just cut kids from the top flight teams, and the coaches are paid. They are thrifty though and have managed to keep costs down relatively, despite hiring coaches from Europe to do this (mainly UK, Spain, Ireland, Portugal). This is our first year with them and now I'm starting to see some of the extra $$ seep in. For instance, they are "sponsored" by Adidas, but the uniform package is incredibly expensive. Also, when 2 kids were ID'd from the team (one was my own) to go to a regional tryout for the regional team (by region, I mean Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Southern Ontario), they asked all the players (20 total) to purchase a $60 training jacket with our sponsor's patch (Bayern Munich). Is that really necessary? Luckily, the 9 ID sessions only cost an extra $40, which isn't bad at all.

We pay less than 500 a season. Volunteer coach, 3 practices a week. Sometimes have to kick in a little extra for a tournament. The coach keeps the roster small to maximize minutes.

The league we are in has teams from KC, Lawrence, Topeka and even one from Columbia.

They give us a Sporting KC affiliation patch every year that has to be ironed on lol. Last night some of the Sporting KC technical staff came out to coach the coaches and scout a little.

 

[upstater]

We pay less than 500 a season. Volunteer coach, 3 practices a week. Sometimes have to kick in a little extra for a tournament. The coach keeps the roster small to maximize minutes.

The league we are in has teams from KC, Lawrence, Topeka and even one from Columbia.

They give us a Sporting KC affiliation patch every year that has to be ironed on lol. Last night some of the Sporting KC technical staff came out to coach the coaches and scout a little.

We pay a lot more. We use to pay $500 for 10 months for 3 years, but when her last team was blown to smithereens because of the age matrix, we started exploring. Her current club is $1800 a year now, which is still lower than some of the other academies, one is affiliated with an MLS team, and one with a Women's Pro League team.

 

[Chuck]

We pay a lot more. We use to pay $500 for 10 months for 3 years, but when her last team was blown to smithereens because of the age matrix, we started exploring. Her current club is $1800 a year now, which is still lower than some of the other academies, one is affiliated with an MLS team, and one with a Women's Pro League team.

My son's team came out stronger with the age change. My daughter's (and all of our girls teams) are a bit of a mess. That $1,800 is still not bad for some the academies around me. I'm fine with the good ones, but I have a friend that paid over $3k and his son played in 3 tournaments and had 10 regular season games for the whole year. They made them buy a ridiculous kit that was nice, but included 3 shirts, 2 pair of shorts, a full warm-up suit, 2 pair of socks and a bag. You had to buy that every year. The academy folded.

Our club fees are somewhat variable:

• There is a $325 club fee. That gets you use of the fields (we bring in our own lights for practices), club-wide skills training once a week, entrance to a fall tournament (this weekend), fees for our league (fall/spring), $500 per team in fall and spring to be used to have our trainers at games, and some other crap (patches for tournaments, car magnets, a few pitchers of beer and wings for coaches, etc.).
• Each team is then responsible for the rest of the budget each season to pay for: all equipment (balls, bench, first aid stuff, corner flags, if not available from previous season), trainer's fees for twice per week practices and any games over the $500 allowance, end of season parties, additional tournaments, etc. It's usually between $250 and $300 each season (fall and spring).
• So we're usually in for a bit less than $1k.
• You have to buy the kit which includes two shirts (Red and Black), black shorts, socks. We went with Adidas last year who, unfortunately, changes their kits often. My kids are getting a second year out of the kit we bought last year so I can't complain when we have to change next year. We also got them each an Adidas jacket last season and they are still using their Zara bags in their fourth season.
• Each team usually does something for winter training (renting space to practice or joining an indoor league), but that is voluntary for the kids.

We had an embezzlement issue a couple years before my kids played so the club was a bit strapped for cash. We were conservative with spending, and the guy paid the money back that he took so we're now flush with cash. We're doing an event where the whole club is going to go to a U14 girls game under the lights at our high school. We have a couple people from the Red Bulls lined up to come (I don't know who), and other light entertainment/snacks. I told the coach that he may want to give the other team a heads up. It should be great for their girls also.

 

[meyers7]

I can deal with offside, ball/strikes, and fouls in basketball calmly as its a game. I have been really heated only 3 times in the last 6 years of coaching and two of the three where over player safety. The first was my example of one team slide tacking and taking my players out when slide tackling was not allowed. A second was in baseball when I had the winning run ruled out in the bottom of the inning because he ran out of the baseline between 3rd and Home to avoid running over the opposing Catcher who was blocking the basepath without the ball. I was told by the opposing coach and the Umpire its only obstruction if contact is made, which is 1) incorrect and 2) I am not ordering a 9 year old to try and run over another player in baseball. Afterwards, I found nice video clip on the official Little League website for umpires that clearly states contact is not required and sent it to both. The last was in basketball when the U10 Rec Coordinator decided that since his team beat my team twice in the regular season (by 12 and then by 2), there was no need for a championship game between the top two teams (his team was 10-0, mine was 8-2) and declared his team the champion and cancelled the already scheduled championship game. I love coaching the kids. Dealing with the other BS, less so.

I came close to pulling my team of the field one game (HS boys Freshmen), the game was getting out of hand. Both teams were fouling hard and retaliating. I actually yelled at the ref to get it under control before someone got hurt. He almost threw me out, but I kept with "player safety".

My brother did get thrown out in a travel softball game. I guess the field umpire had a call and was going to call safe, but the home plate umpire (out of position) kind of game him a look and he changed to out. My brother went off on him about not giving in to the other ump, etc. Finally said it was "wrong, just wrong, you need Jesus". And that did it. Thrown out.

 

[upstater]

My son's team came out stronger with the age change. My daughter's (and all of our girls teams) are a bit of a mess. That $1,800 is still not bad for some the academies around me. I'm fine with the good ones, but I have a friend that paid over $3k and his son played in 3 tournaments and had 10 regular season games for the whole year. They made them buy a ridiculous kit that was nice, but included 3 shirts, 2 pair of shorts, a full warm-up suit, 2 pair of socks and a bag. You had to buy that every year. The academy folded.

I really like hearing these stories about how it's done elsewhere.

It keeps things in perspective.

I talked to a friend of mine recently whose son was selected for nationals out of a regional ODP camp, and then later was so burned out he quit soccer at 14. He said that the constant pushing of the academy scene was something that he should have watched out for, protected his son more. One year, several players on the team went to a speed & strength outfit that worked with pro athletes in the area, and it cost a bundle, $600 for weekly sessions for 3 months. He said he felt compelled to put his kid there because all the other parents were doing it, but in the end it was stuff like that that wore out his son and entered the land of the truly ridiculous.

 

[ZooCougar]

I really like hearing these stories about how it's done elsewhere.

It keeps things in perspective.

I talked to a friend of mine recently whose son was selected for nationals out of a regional ODP camp, and then later was so burned out he quit soccer at 14. He said that the constant pushing of the academy scene was something that he should have watched out for, protected his son more. One year, several players on the team went to a speed & strength outfit that worked with pro athletes in the area, and it cost a bundle, $600 for weekly sessions for 3 months. He said he felt compelled to put his kid there because all the other parents were doing it, but in the end it was stuff like that that wore out his son and entered the land of the truly ridiculous.

We should be teaching players to have a better first touch and to think quicker. Speed and strength is great for American football and covering up a lack of technical ability. At least that's what I tend to think.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

We should be teaching players to have a better first touch and to think quicker. Speed and strength is great for American football and covering up a lack of technical ability. At least that's what I tend to think.

Not to mention speed and strength change a lot between the ages of 14 to 18. I played forward a lot before high school because I was quick. Blew my right knee in 10th grade. Lost a few steps; but, PT gave me strenght to hold the ball explosive first step to start a counter and good field vision for passing and positioning. So, I became a sold defensive center midfielder who was not afraid to try a blast from 30 yards out when the opportunity arose. Now, if PT could have added at least 2" to my 5' 7" frame, I may have been good enough to play the position in at a DIII college. All well.