Calling all Rules Experts - Flagrant 1

[CajunHusky]

I can understand it not getting called for Saniya's hit in the nose. But why wasn't it a flagrant 1 when Gabby got punched in the throat?

 

[vtcwbuff]

Maybe because it wasn't deliberate and it wasn't a punch.

 

[CajunHusky]

Maybe because it wasn't deliberate and it wasn't a punch.

I think "deliberate" makes it a Flagrant 2 ..... think back to the Flagrant 1 called on Lou last game, all that was inadvertent contact above the shoulder running back to the other end of the court.

 

[Geew1992]

Maybe because it wasn't deliberate and it wasn't a punch.

Flagrant 1 doesn't mean deliberate. The refs are supposed to call anything above the shoulders as at least flagrant. If they believe it's deliberate then it's a 2.

 

[JoePgh]

Lou's Flagrant 1 was that because it occurred during a dead ball period, and it certainly did look like payback for what Lou considered excessively physical defense.

Mabrey was just extending her arm on defense -- she was focused upcourt and had no idea that Gabby was where she was. I think the officials exercised proper discretion to realize that it wasn't some form of payback; it was just normal defense and someone happened to be in the way.

 

[UcMiami]

Often refs do not see the actual contact point, and quite often I have seen a coach/player request that they review an incident after the next stoppage when no foul was called or before the free throws when a simple foul has been called. With Gabby obviously having trouble swallowing, the refs should have looked themselves, but Geno and Gabby should both have made a point of asking.

I do not think it was deliberately aimed at her throat, but the arm was raised elbow bent to ward Gabby off, and it was raised to Gabby's throat level, whether intentional or not, that is a flagrant 1 foul.

Joe - the arm was raised to keep herself from running into a screen and was intended to make contact with Gabby - no other reason to raise it in that awkward position - it was probably supposed to make contact with gabby's breastbone, but it was too high and caught her throat.

 

[oldude]

I do beleive it was a flagrant foul, but as previously indicated, I don't believe the refs got a clear view of it and while Geno could have called for a review of the play, the game was basically over at that point.

 

[TWG236]

I recall Caroline Doty making a pure basketball play in the final's against Louisville and she was called for a Flagrant 1 foul. I don't believe it has to be intentional but I also saw this play and wondered why it was not called a flagrant foul. I know it wasn't done on purpose, but it was still contact above the shoulder and should have been called.

 

[bags27]

I agree with oldude and UcMiami: I thought Maybrey didn't need to extend her arm that way, and there was certainly room to think it was a flagrant. In most cases now in most sports, refs/umps err on the side of protecting players against potentially harmful hits by calling fouls/violations--if for no other purpose than for keeping control of the game.

Lou, I thought, did commit a flagrant. Not even sure it was only a flagrant 1, but I'm no mind reader...

 

[CajunHusky]

I recall Caroline Doty making a pure basketball play in the final's against Louisville and she was called for a Flagrant 1 foul. I don't believe it has to be intentional but I also saw this play and wondered why it was not called a flagrant foul. I know it wasn't done on purpose, but it was still contact above the shoulder and should have been called.

Doty had a reputation for being well say we say "aggressive" .... she didn't get the benefit of the doubt in most cases.

 

[CajunHusky]

I think the refs are required to call a foul for elbow contact above the shoulder, no matter how incidental.

 

[chuck.r]

Doty had a reputation for being well say we say "aggressive" .... she didn't get the benefit of the doubt in most cases.

Doty was a 'street baller' - one of the things Auriemma liked about her.

 

[UcMiami]

Doty was a 'street baller' - one of the things Auriemma liked about her.

Yeah - she had absolutely no 'california' in her for the coaches to deal with! Philly mean streets indeed!

 

[HopJim]

I agree with oldude and UcMiami: I thought Maybrey didn't need to extend her arm that way, and there was certainly room to think it was a flagrant. In most cases now in most sports, refs/umps err on the side of protecting players against potentially harmful hits by calling fouls/violations--if for no other purpose than for keeping control of the game.

Lou, I thought, did commit a flagrant. Not even sure it was only a flagrant 1, but I'm no mind reader...

Here are rules:
A flagrant 1 foul involves excessive or severe contact during a live ball, including especially when a player, :...swings an elbow and makes illegal, non-excessive contact with an opponent above the shoulders..." This offense includes what was previously known as an "intentional foul" for when a player obviously fouls an opposing player to prevent an easy breakaway score. The penalty for a flagrant 1 foul is two free throws and a throw-in in for the opposing team at the out-of-bounds of bound spot nearest the foul.

• A flagrant 2 foul involves unsportsmanlike conduct that is extreme in nature, or excessive or severe contact during a dead ball, including, "...when a player swings an elbow excessively and makes contact above the shoulders..." Fighting is also considered a flagrant 2 foul. The penalty for a flagrant 2 foul in NCAA and NFHS rules is immediate ejection of the offending player, plus two free throws and a throw-in for the opposing team at the division line opposite the scorer's table.

Tough to call either the Lou or Maybrey fouls but my thoughts:
-Maybrey's contact to throat was clearly severe and excessive. Since normally calls made to protect players, amazed at the lack of action by refs.
-Lou's foul required a bit of common sense by refs. She was being pounded as she went up court and stuck her arm out, perhaps to protect herself, perhaps to retaliate. Bad luck on Lou's part since in most cases, it would have been incidental contact but since the player guarding her was so short, contact was made to head.

 

[VAMike23]

Flagrant 1 doesn't mean deliberate. The refs are supposed to call anything above the shoulders as at least flagrant. If they believe it's deliberate then it's a 2.

The rules do not require a Flagrant 1 call for contact above the shoulders. Such contact can be a common, F1 or F2 foul. The key as was discussed in the game thread is whether the ref deems the contact to be "excessive" or "extreme."


----------------------------------
Rule 4-16.2(c) Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but is not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:

1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
5. Contact with a player making a throw-in. This act shall also serve as a team warning for reaching through the boundary (See Rule 4-11.1.g);
6. Illegal contact caused by swinging of an elbow that is deemed excessive or unnecessary but does not rise to the level of a flagrant 2 personal foul (See Rule 4-19.7).


------------------------------------

There is one place where certain contact is per se excessive, and so would be an automatic F2:


Rule 4-19.7 The following shall be considered not only excessive, but extreme swinging:

a.When arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arm(s) and elbow(s) exceeds that of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot, or;
b.When the speed and vigor with which the arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung is such that injury could result if another player were contacted.


Rule 4-16.2(d)
Flagrant 2 personal foul. A flagrant 2 personal foul is a personal foul that involves contact with an opponent that is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme while the ball is live.

--------------------------------------

Also see Rule 10, Section 1 where it is made clear that contact by the elbow does not have to be called as a Flagrant foul, even if the contact occurs above the shoulders:

Rule 10-1.14

Art. 14. Illegal contact caused by the swinging of the elbow(s) that:

a. Results from total body movement is a common or flagrant 1 personal foul.
b. Is excessive per Rule 4-19.7 is a flagrant 2 foul.
c. Occurs above or below the shoulders of an opponent is a common, flagrant 1 or flagrant 2 personal foul.

Art. 15. Illegal contact with an elbow that does not involve the swinging of the elbow shall be considered a foul.

 

[chuck.r]

Here are rules:
A flagrant 1 foul involves excessive or severe contact during a live ball, including especially when a player, :...swings an elbow and makes illegal, non-excessive contact with an opponent above the shoulders..." This offense includes what was previously known as an "intentional foul" for when a player obviously fouls an opposing player to prevent an easy breakaway score. The penalty for a flagrant 1 foul is two free throws and a throw-in in for the opposing team at the out-of-bounds of bound spot nearest the foul.

• A flagrant 2 foul involves unsportsmanlike conduct that is extreme in nature, or excessive or severe contact during a dead ball, including, "...when a player swings an elbow excessively and makes contact above the shoulders..." Fighting is also considered a flagrant 2 foul. The penalty for a flagrant 2 foul in NCAA and NFHS rules is immediate ejection of the offending player, plus two free throws and a throw-in for the opposing team at the division line opposite the scorer's table.

Tough to call either the Lou or Maybrey fouls but my thoughts:
-Maybrey's contact to throat was clearly severe and excessive. Since normally calls made to protect players, amazed at the lack of action by refs.
-Lou's foul required a bit of common sense by refs. She was being pounded as she went up court and stuck her arm out, perhaps to protect herself, perhaps to retaliate. Bad luck on Lou's part since in most cases, it would have been incidental contact but since the player guarding her was so short, contact was made to head.

Also, shouldn't discount the Texas player's reaction, which was to stand stunned in pain right in front of the referee. Gabby had a similar reaction, but ran immediately to the bench to spit into a cup. If the referees missed the initial contact, they weren't necessarily allowed to dwell on it, as in Lou's case. In that instance it would seem to be up to the coach to request a monitor review.

 

[UcMiami]

Also, shouldn't discount the Texas player's reaction, which was to stand stunned in pain right in front of the referee. Gabby had a similar reaction, but ran immediately to the bench to spit into a cup. If the referees missed the initial contact, they weren't necessarily allowed to dwell on it, as in Lou's case. In that instance it would seem to be up to the coach to request a monitor review.

Yeah, but the force of the blow landed her on her backside pretty darn quickly - looked like she had been poleaxed!

 

[Orangutan]

Anyone got a timestamp on the Mabrey incident in question? I missed it on the original broadcast.

 

[VAMike23]

Anyone got a timestamp on the Mabrey incident in question? I missed it on the original broadcast.

It happened near the end of the 4th Q, just under the 2:00 mark

 

[JRRRJ]

The rules do not require a Flagrant 1 call for contact above the shoulders. Such contact can be a common, F1 or F2 foul. The key as was discussed in the game thread is whether the ref deems the contact to be "excessive" or "extreme."


----------------------------------
Rule 4-16.2(c) Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but is not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:

1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
5. Contact with a player making a throw-in. This act shall also serve as a team warning for reaching through the boundary (See Rule 4-11.1.g);
6. Illegal contact caused by swinging of an elbow that is deemed excessive or unnecessary but does not rise to the level of a flagrant 2 personal foul (See Rule 4-19.7).


------------------------------------

There is one place where certain contact is per se excessive, and so would be an automatic F2:


Rule 4-19.7 The following shall be considered not only excessive, but extreme swinging:

a.When arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arm(s) and elbow(s) exceeds that of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot, or;
b.When the speed and vigor with which the arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung is such that injury could result if another player were contacted.


Rule 4-16.2(d)
Flagrant 2 personal foul. A flagrant 2 personal foul is a personal foul that involves contact with an opponent that is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme while the ball is live.

--------------------------------------

Also see Rule 10, Section 1 where it is made clear that contact by the elbow does not have to be called as a Flagrant foul, even if the contact occurs above the shoulders:

Rule 10-1.14

Art. 14. Illegal contact caused by the swinging of the elbow(s) that:

a. Results from total body movement is a common or flagrant 1 personal foul.
b. Is excessive per Rule 4-19.7 is a flagrant 2 foul.
c. Occurs above or below the shoulders of an opponent is a common, flagrant 1 or flagrant 2 personal foul.

Art. 15. Illegal contact with an elbow that does not involve the swinging of the elbow shall be considered a foul.

Note that earlier in rule 10, we find the definition of what constitutes a personal foul is much broader than I thought previously:

RULE 10
Fouls and Penalties
Section 1. Personal Fouls
Art. 1. A player shall not hold, displace, push, charge, trip or impede the
progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s)
or by bending her own body into other than a normal position or by using
any unreasonably rough tactics
Art. 2. A player shall not contact an opponent with her hand unless such
contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is
incidental to an attempt to play the ball
Art. 3. A player shall not use her hand(s) on an opponent to inhibit the
freedom of movement of the opponent in any way
Art. 4. It is a foul when a defender contacts the ball handler/dribbler:
a. Anytime with two hands
b. By placing a hand (front or back of the hand) on the ball handler/
dribbler and keeping it on the ball handler/dribbler.
c. More than once with the same hand or with alternating hands; or
d. With an arm bar.
Art. 5. A player shall not extend the arm(s) fully or partially other than
vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when
contact with the arm(s) occurs.

Articles 1, 4d and 5 all make the strike of Gabby's throat a foul. Per article 14 (10-1.14 above), it's a flagrant foul, type 1 or 2 at the discretion of the officials.

Also note that it appears if a UConn player were to contact an opponent while using the arm-swinging-impede-their-view style of man defense we usually see it could easily be called a flagrant, no matter where the contact was made.

N.B. the text above is copied from the NCAA Women's Basketball 2015-16 and 2016-17 Rules book, which I will post on my download page in PDF form in a minute or 2 if anyone else wants a copy.

 

[VAMike23]

Note that earlier in rule 10, we find the definition of what constitutes a personal foul is much broader than I thought previously:


Articles 1, 4d and 5 all make the strike of Gabby's throat a foul. Per article 14 (10-1.14 above), it's a flagrant foul, type 1 or 2 at the discretion of the officials.

Per 10-1.14, how do you figure? I'm not seeing that

 

[JRRRJ]

Per 10-1.14, how do you figure? I'm not seeing that

I claim that rules 1.1, 1.4, and 1.5 all would class the strike as "illegal contact". 1.14 says illegal contact by a swinging elbow is a flagrant.

 

[VAMike23]

I claim that rules 1.1, 1.4, and 1.5 all would class the strike as "illegal contact". 1.14 says illegal contact by a swinging elbow is a flagrant.

Rule 10-1.14

Art. 14. Illegal contact caused by the swinging of the elbow(s) that:

a. Results from total body movement is a common or flagrant 1 personal foul.
b. Is excessive per Rule 4-19.7 is a flagrant 2 foul.
c. Occurs above or below the shoulders of an opponent is a common, [ or ] flagrant 1 or flagrant 2 personal foul.

Not sure what your reference to "1.1, 1.4 and 1.5" meant...? No argument from me that it was at least a foul (illegal contact) when she got clocked in the throat. Question is whether it was a flagrant, which hinges on "excessive" in the ref's judgment for the most part.

 

[CocoHusky]

Yeah - she had absolutely no 'california' in her for the coaches to deal with! Philly mean streets indeed!

Since technically there are no friendly streets "Philly Indeed" would have been sufficient.

 

[HoopsFan21]

I recall Caroline Doty making a pure basketball play in the final's against Louisville and she was called for a Flagrant 1 foul. I don't believe it has to be intentional but I also saw this play and wondered why it was not called a flagrant foul. I know it wasn't done on purpose, but it was still contact above the shoulder and should have been called.

Doty decked Bria Smith. Geno thought there was no contact, Walz asked the refs to take a second look and they did and assessed the flagrant 1. It was a case of Doty swinging her elbows to make space, and I believe that was the year refs started making a point of calling the flagrant if you swung your elbows and made contact above the shoulders. I don't think Doty was trying to knock anyone down in the opening minutes of that game when the score was 7-5 or something like that. Compare that to the flagrant given to Vails or Reed with about 7 minutes left in the game when she hooked Stef by the neck and slammed her to the ground. That was the payback, I guess with a little frustration of being down 30 mixed in, and I thought could have been a flagrant 2 since it looked intentional to me.