Are They Not Worried?

[malevocalist#]

Kentucky had no recruits in the Top 100 in 2016. Or did they all jump ship after coming aboard?

Duke Blue Devils only brought in 1 Top 10 recruit overall from the class of 2016. Is this normal for a school of their pedigree?

In the year of 2017, Duke has no Top 10 recruits but 1 or so futher down the food chain. And giving the fact recruiting is not in it's final stage there is still time.

Kentucky has not landed a Top 100 recruit as of yet for the class of 2017. Will 2016 repeat itself?

Tennessee after having none in 2016 is starting to pick up the pace. I expect them to do better.

My focus is on Duke & Kentucky. Two programs some months back who witness recruits bailing out due to controversy with their head coach or for whatever reasons unknown.

The fact that their administration kept these coaches at the helm was mind boggling to me personally. Student athletes (who bailed) at times do warn other incoming recruits if asked to provide insight regarding the current situations with the head coach or the program.

Players disseminating information regarding the present state of their programs -when requested - is nothing new.

And with that in mind was it wise to keep these coaches aboard knowing in advance such move can hurt recruiting? Just wondering.

Is it time for Kentucky and Duke to start panicking? I'm sure others may have a better take on this than I do. I am all ears.

 

[bags27]

Is it time for Kentucky and Duke to start panicking?

Panicking as in a category 5 hurricane is going to hit your town dead center or in that your team is going to go 20 and 12 and maybe not make the tournament? Athletic directors can't fix everything all at once and sometimes not anything over a short period of time. Some teams just don't play well over a couple of years and then get better and then get worse again. Stuff happens. No one panics....

 

[RockyMTblue2]

My take on Mitchell's recent program melt down is that his huge ego caught up to him. He's had years of assistant coach turmoil and turnover. He took responsibility for recent events, but by pretty much saying over the course of 2 months that he trusted and relied on his staff and did not stay close enough to the program, with the sentence left unfinished but clearly hanging in the air: "but I was betrayed and if I wasn't betrayed, my hire was a bad one.") He has spent too much energy being a personality, yet he knows, for whatever reason, that he has an unshakeable relationship with his AD and Sr. Admin. And, then, Kentucky has the same problem as Duke, Mitchell and JPM have pretty decent records and who can you replace them with and feel good about where the program is going.

 

[Kibitzer]

As for this speculation about AD's panicking and replacing coaches, I am reminded of the old (Irish?) adage:

"The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know."​

. . . especially when the one you know is already under contract for a few more years.

 

[CocoHusky]

Sadly, this is more of a commentary on the, perhaps permanent ,second class status to which Women's sports has been relegated in our society. Duke, Kentucky & and Tennessee would not tolerate any of this from football or men's basketball program.

 

[bags27]

Sadly, this is more of a commentary on the, perhaps permanent ,second class status to which Women's sports has been relegated in our society. Duke, Kentucky & and Tennessee would not tolerate any of this from football or men's basketball program.

OTOH, Coco, South Carolina, Baylor, Stanford, and ND all have WCBB teams clearly superior to their MCBB teams and no one's "panicking" about the MCBB teams.

 

[stwainfan]

How does bringing in coach Dunn help Kentucky?

 

[Carnac]

How does bringing in coach Dunn help Kentucky?

It enhances their credibility just a bit. Lin Dunn is well known and respected throughout the entire sphere of women's basketball. Dunn is known as a no non-sense coach/administrator.

The perception is there will be no hanky-panky at Kentucky during her watch.

 

[malevocalist#]

As for this speculation about AD's panicking and replacing coaches, I am reminded of the old (Irish?) adage:

"The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know."​

. . . especially when the one you know is already under contract for a few more years.

Lol.

 

[malevocalist#]

Sadly, this is more of a commentary on the, perhaps permanent ,second class status to which Women's sports has been relegated in our society. Duke, Kentucky & and Tennessee would not tolerate any of this from football or men's basketball program.

You are 100% correct regarding that fact Cocohusky. It is amazing that some things which are (definately) not tolerated in football, is allowed in NCAA WOMEN'S BB.

I've never seen that much defection from a team like Kentucky and Duke - not to mention the accusations that followed - only to witness the administration take it lightly.

And maybe they didn't take a soft approach at all. I'm assuming the present contracts of the coaches may have played a part in keeping them on board. Again, I'm assuming at the moment.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

It enhances their credibility just a bit. Lin Dunn is well known and respected throughout the entire sphere of women's basketball. Dunn is known as a no non-sense coach/administrator.

The perception is there will be no hanky-panky at Kentucky during her watch.

Didn't she retire from the pro ranks at the end of the prior season? I, too, thought that was a pretty much a band aid against an only speculated problem. Mitchell is not known for liking strong help; he wants it, then he doesn't.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

You are 100% correct regarding that fact Cocohusky. It is amazing that some things which are (definately) not tolerated in football, is allowed in NCAA WOMEN'S BB.

I've never seen that much defection from a team like Kentucky and Duke - not to mention the accusations that followed - only to witness the administration take it lightly.

And maybe they didn't take a soft approach at all. I'm assuming the present contracts of the coaches may have played a part in keeping them on board. Again, I'm assuming at the moment.

As t0 your last line, quite probably. I've pointed out before that Arizona kept Coach Butts to the end of her contract, to avoid what was really a rather modest pay-off. But the truth is, income and interest for WBB is not huge (probably 1000-1500 game) and it made fiscal sense at a University that isn't "rolling in it". I doubt Duke or Kentucky - while they have a lot more WBB fans - are rolling in it and they are paying their WBB coaches a lot more than Arizona was.

That said, the down side can exist. Out here - no recruits for this season and NO perspective recruits AT ALL in the supposed "recruiting data base". In other words, she stopped recruiting when she realized last season was her last.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Duke Blue Devils only brought in 1 Top 10 recruit overall from the class of 2016. Is this normal for a school of their pedigree?

Duke only had two recruits in the class, plus one transfer coming in.

In the year of 2017, Duke has no Top 10 recruits but 1 or so futher down the food chain.

It depends on the rating/ranking services:

ASGR Rankings for Duke commits:
5. Mikayla Boykin
22. Madison Treece
41. Jayda Adams

Blue Star Rankings for Duke commits:
16. Mikayla Boykin
56. Madison Treece
94. Jayda Adams

One service has Duke with one Top 1, two Top 25, and three top 50 players. Another has vastly different rankings.

My focus is on Duke & Kentucky. Two programs some months back who witness recruits bailing out due to controversy with their head coach or for whatever reasons unknown.

Duke had transfers, but no recruits bailed. In fact, Duke picked up one recruit and a transfer after the commencement of the investigation.

The fact that their administration kept these coaches at the helm was mind boggling to me personally.

The complaint was initiated by Elizabeth Williams, who said no mistreatment was physical or criminal in nature but described the program's atmosphere with McCallie at the helm as negative. AD Kevin White stated, "The purpose of this evaluation, which Duke Athletics initiated with an outside party, was for Duke women’s basketball to get even better. I have discussed the results at length with Coach McCallie, and we are indeed in a position to improve Duke women’s basketball for present and future student-athletes, coaches, and staff alike."

Playing (blue) devil's advocate, if there are no allegations of criminal conduct or physical abuse, but simply a "negative" environment, how is that a terminable offense? The investigation was for possible verbal mistreatment of players and coaches, and the investigation revealed that improvements could be made. How is that mind boggling to you that termination was not the end result?

Sadly, this is more of a commentary on the, perhaps permanent ,second class status to which Women's sports has been relegated in our society. Duke, Kentucky & and Tennessee would not tolerate any of this from football or men's basketball program.

In nine years, Coach McCallie has been a three-time ACC Coach of the Year, averaged more than 27 wins per season, won three ACC Championships, and led Duke to the NCAA Elite Eight four times. Again, there were no allegations of physical abuse or criminal conduct, but a negative atmosphere.

Had there been sustained allegations of physical abuse or criminal conduct, she would have been terminated, as a coach of a male program would have been.

McCallie has three years remaining on her contract, totaling $2.4 million ($800,000) per year. Add a buyout plus a new coach's salary - conservatively, lets say $600,000 per year - that is $4.2 million in head coaches' salaries over three years (instead of $2.4 million) to a program that already loses $2 million per year.

Her overall record at Duke is 245–65 (.790). How many coaches of men's teams can you name that have been fired with that winning percentage and without any sustained allegation of criminal conduct or physical abuse?

Do I think she is a bad Xs and Os coach? Absolutely.
Do I think she cannot develop the talent she gets in recruiting? Absolutely.
Was I hoping she would have been fired? Absolutely.
But is it fair to say to make this about women's basketball being "second class status?" Absolutely NOT.

 

[CocoHusky]

What is and continues to relegate women's athletics to second class status is precisely the calculation and the conclusion in this portion of your post.

McCallie has three years remaining on her contract, totaling $2.4 million ($800,000) per year. Add a buyout plus a new coach's salary - conservatively, lets say $600,000 per year - that is $4.2 million in head coaches' salaries over three years (instead of $2.4 million) to a program that already loses $2 million per year.

By this conclusion "why sink money into a money losing program" all women's sports get the short end of the stick and women's programs get isolated in these buyout decisions from what should be a larger enterprise called the athletic department. If considered as a total entity Duke Men's basketball alone generated over $33 mil last year. In the context of a JPM 3 year buyout this sum would hardly be a consideration if the Women's program were not relegated to second class status. This is a society problem not unique to Duke but I do appreciate the opportunity to use Duke as a bad example.
Men's Basketball Revenue for Each ACC School

 

[malevocalist#]

Duke only had two recruits in the class, plus one transfer coming in.



It depends on the rating/ranking services:

ASGR Rankings for Duke commits:
5. Mikayla Boykin
22. Madison Treece
41. Jayda Adams

Blue Star Rankings for Duke commits:
16. Mikayla Boykin
56. Madison Treece
94. Jayda Adams

One service has Duke with one Top 1, two Top 25, and three top 50 players. Another has vastly different rankings.



Duke had transfers, but no recruits bailed. In fact, Duke picked up one recruit and a transfer after the commencement of the investigation.



The complaint was initiated by Elizabeth Williams, who said no mistreatment was physical or criminal in nature but described the program's atmosphere with McCallie at the helm as negative. AD Kevin White stated, "The purpose of this evaluation, which Duke Athletics initiated with an outside party, was for Duke women’s basketball to get even better. I have discussed the results at length with Coach McCallie, and we are indeed in a position to improve Duke women’s basketball for present and future student-athletes, coaches, and staff alike."

Playing (blue) devil's advocate, if there are no allegations of criminal conduct or physical abuse, but simply a "negative" environment, how is that a terminable offense? The investigation was for possible verbal mistreatment of players and coaches, and the investigation revealed that improvements could be made. How is that mind boggling to you that termination was not the end result?



In nine years, Coach McCallie has been a three-time ACC Coach of the Year, averaged more than 27 wins per season, won three ACC Championships, and led Duke to the NCAA Elite Eight four times. Again, there were no allegations of physical abuse or criminal conduct, but a negative atmosphere.

Had there been sustained allegations of physical abuse or criminal conduct, she would have been terminated, as a coach of a male program would have been.

McCallie has three years remaining on her contract, totaling $2.4 million ($800,000) per year. Add a buyout plus a new coach's salary - conservatively, lets say $600,000 per year - that is $4.2 million in head coaches' salaries over three years (instead of $2.4 million) to a program that already loses $2 million per year.

Her overall record at Duke is 245–65 (.790). How many coaches of men's teams can you name that have been fired with that winning percentage and without any sustained allegation of criminal conduct or physical abuse?

Do I think she is a bad Xs and Os coach? Absolutely.
Do I think she cannot develop the talent she gets in recruiting? Absolutely.
Was I hoping she would have been fired? Absolutely.
But is it fair to say to make this about women's basketball being "second class status?" Absolutely NOT.

With all that said. Lets see how long it takes her to win a championship before the contract runs out. If they keep her Duke is shooting off the other toe.

And regardless of what the final outcome was in retaining her service. IMHO the damage among recruits is done.

Now was she retain due to the years she has left on her contract? Absolutely. Well I believe so.

Can she rebound? Absolutely.

Will she rebound enough to win a title? Absolutely not.

 

[BroadwayVa]

As for this speculation about AD's panicking and replacing coaches, I am reminded of the old (Irish?) adage:

"The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know."​

. . . especially when the one you know is already under contract for a few more years.

OR FDR---He's an S.O.B---but he's OUR S.O.B.!!! How did that work out???

 

[BroadwayVa]

With all that said. Lets see how long it takes her to win a championship before the contract runs out. If they keep her Duke is shooting off the other toe.

And regardless of what the final outcome was in retaining her service. IMHO the damage among recruits is done.

Now was she retain due to the years she has left on her contract? Absolutely. Well I believe so.

Can she rebound? Absolutely.

Will she rebound enough to win a title? Absolutely not.

If an NCAA Championship was a requirement for retention---some coach will have to wait more than 360 years (plus 11)

 

[BroadwayVa]

What is and continues to relegate women's athletics to second class status is precisely the calculation and the conclusion in this portion of your post.



By this conclusion "why sink money into a money losing program" all women's sports get the short end of the stick and women's programs get isolated in these buyout decisions from what should be a larger enterprise called the athletic department. If considered as a total entity Duke Men's basketball alone generated over $33 mil last year. In the context of a JPM 3 year buyout this sum would hardly be a consideration if the Women's program were not relegated to second class status. This is a society problem not unique to Duke but I do appreciate the opportunity to use Duke as a bad example.
Men's Basketball Revenue for Each ACC School

I have a different slant on Women's programs being relegated to 2nd class. It's not about society--it's about money and attendance.
And mostly public relations--a program designed to get Women to follow Women in sports--it's not a one shot program it will take time. Once the rest of the USA world finds how great these athletes are and the way they play the game(s)--the attendance will increase--
But if I knew how to improve attendance (realistically) I'd be a PR guru--not posting on the Boneyard.

?
\

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

What is and continues to relegate women's athletics to second class status is precisely the calculation and the conclusion in this portion of your post.

By this conclusion "why sink money into a money losing program" all women's sports get the short end of the stick and women's programs get isolated in these buyout decisions from what should be a larger enterprise called the athletic department. If considered as a total entity Duke Men's basketball alone generated over $33 mil last year. In the context of a JPM 3 year buyout this sum would hardly be a consideration if the Women's program were not relegated to second class status. This is a society problem not unique to Duke but I do appreciate the opportunity to use Duke as a bad example.
Men's Basketball Revenue for Each ACC School

Not at all. It is the "where is the money coming from to fund a buyout" question.

Men's basketball revenue funds the entire athletic department, including all non-revenue sports. Buying her out and paying a new coach the equivalent amount means an extra $2.4 million. Where is the money coming from? In men's basketball, you can usually rely on a big donor to pony up the money; there are no such donors for women's basketball - at least not at Duke.

You are operating from a premise that she "should" be bought out and that the failure to do so means that the university does not care about women's sports or that it is a second class status issue. Putting aside the economic realities, what is the basis for doing so? An investigation found that she could work on her verbal communication and fostering a more positive atmosphere. But nowhere was there any finding of abuse or criminal conduct. She has made four Elite Eights in nine years and wins 79 percent of her games.

So I ask the question again - How many coaches of men's teams can you name that have been fired with that winning percentage and without any sustained allegation of criminal conduct or abuse?

 

[BroadwayVa]

Duke only had two recruits in the class, plus one transfer coming in.



It depends on the rating/ranking services:

ASGR Rankings for Duke commits:
5. Mikayla Boykin
22. Madison Treece
41. Jayda Adams

Blue Star Rankings for Duke commits:
16. Mikayla Boykin
56. Madison Treece
94. Jayda Adams

One service has Duke with one Top 1, two Top 25, and three top 50 players. Another has vastly different rankings.



Duke had transfers, but no recruits bailed. In fact, Duke picked up one recruit and a transfer after the commencement of the investigation.



The complaint was initiated by Elizabeth Williams, who said no mistreatment was physical or criminal in nature but described the program's atmosphere with McCallie at the helm as negative. AD Kevin White stated, "The purpose of this evaluation, which Duke Athletics initiated with an outside party, was for Duke women’s basketball to get even better. I have discussed the results at length with Coach McCallie, and we are indeed in a position to improve Duke women’s basketball for present and future student-athletes, coaches, and staff alike."

Playing (blue) devil's advocate, if there are no allegations of criminal conduct or physical abuse, but simply a "negative" environment, how is that a terminable offense? The investigation was for possible verbal mistreatment of players and coaches, and the investigation revealed that improvements could be made. How is that mind boggling to you that termination was not the end result?



In nine years, Coach McCallie has been a three-time ACC Coach of the Year, averaged more than 27 wins per season, won three ACC Championships, and led Duke to the NCAA Elite Eight four times. Again, there were no allegations of physical abuse or criminal conduct, but a negative atmosphere.

Had there been sustained allegations of physical abuse or criminal conduct, she would have been terminated, as a coach of a male program would have been.

McCallie has three years remaining on her contract, totaling $2.4 million ($800,000) per year. Add a buyout plus a new coach's salary - conservatively, lets say $600,000 per year - that is $4.2 million in head coaches' salaries over three years (instead of $2.4 million) to a program that already loses $2 million per year.

Her overall record at Duke is 245–65 (.790). How many coaches of men's teams can you name that have been fired with that winning percentage and without any sustained allegation of criminal conduct or physical abuse?

Do I think she is a bad Xs and Os coach? Absolutely.
Do I think she cannot develop the talent she gets in recruiting? Absolutely.
Was I hoping she would have been fired? Absolutely.
But is it fair to say to make this about women's basketball being "second class status?" Absolutely NOT.

THANKS FOR KEEPING THE POSTING BALANCED---I DON'T LIKE TO HANG SOMEONE WITHOUT PROOF POSITIVE.

The problem with allegations---everyone thinks they are CHARGES--charges lead to criminal complaints IF and ONLY if verifiable.
JPM has a tough exterior and probably interior--some kids think that borders on abuse--.
I can't and won't defend Mitchell or JPM--but it takes this kind of BALANCED posting to keep these things from being a witch hunt or hanginG

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Not at all. It is the "where is the money coming from to fund a buyout" question.

Men's basketball revenue funds the entire athletic department, including all non-revenue sports. Buying her out and paying a new coach the equivalent amount means an extra $2.4 million. Where is the money coming from? In men's basketball, you can usually rely on a big donor to pony up the money; there are no such donors for women's basketball - at least not at Duke.

You are operating from a premise that she "should" be bought out and that the failure to do so means that the university does not care about women's sports or that it is a second class status issue. Putting aside the economic realities, what is the basis for doing so? An investigation found that she could work on her verbal communication and fostering a more positive atmosphere. But nowhere was there any finding of abuse or criminal conduct. She has made four Elite Eights in nine years and wins 79 percent of her games.

So I ask the question again - How many coaches of men's teams can you name that have been fired with that winning percentage and without any sustained allegation of criminal conduct or abuse?

Just have to say - I don't like JPM either, but given her record, I'm sure she has supporters, as well as those who lament that she hasn't won the big one.

Very few schools have large donors on the women's side, I think. "Good" donors, sure, but large, probably not.

 

[CocoHusky]

You are operating from a premise that she "should" be bought out and that the failure to do so means that the university does not care about women's sports or that it is a second class status issue. Putting aside the economic realities, what is the basis for doing so? So I ask the question again - How many coaches of men's teams can you name that have been fired with that winning percentage and without any sustained allegation of criminal conduct or abuse?

That is not my premise at all but one I can easily defend. My premise is this: When there is a buyout situation involved there is a tremendous inequality involved in the calculation that is disadvantageous to women's programs.

Q: Putting aside the economic realities, what is the basis for doing so?
A: Coaching Incompetence for starters. Give the number of high level recruits to attend Duke the results as measured by player development and record against top ranked opponents. Why do I suddenly feel like I'm preaching to the choir here and that someone has high jacked the former Cam? The number of recent Duke transfer would be another reason as is her tendency to throw her players under the bus at every opportunity.

Q: How many coaches of men's teams can you name that have been fired with that winning percentage and without any sustained allegation of criminal conduct or abuse?
A: I hate to answer a question with a questions but how many Women's coaches, regardless of record, have had to been investigated by HR based on complaints from multiple former players and assistant coaches. While the investigation did not result in "sustained allegation of criminal conduct or abuse" it did conclude that JPM could/should treat people better-much better! Duke HR should not have to conduct an investigation for JPM to learn this very basic lesson and perhaps the money for the investigation would have been better spend on her buyout.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Q: Putting aside the economic realities, what is the basis for doing so?
A: Coaching Incompetence for starters. Give the number of high level recruits to attend Duke the results as measured by player development and record against top ranked opponents. The number of recent Duke transfer would be another reason as is her tendency to throw her players under the bus at every opportunity.

The transfers are a concern. But some are explained away. Alexis Jones went to play closer to home because of her father's health. Salvadores went pro.

As far as record against top ranked opponents, I am well aware of it, especially since I have been the one posting it on this forum.

Players not reaching their potential? Absolutely. Top-five recruiting classes not resulting in Final Fours? Absolutely.

But can you really call it coaching incompetence when you look at the overall record, three ACC titles, and four Elite Eights in nine years? Termination is hard to justify.

Q: How many coaches of men's teams can you name that have been fired with that winning percentage and without any sustained allegation of criminal conduct or abuse?
A: I hate to answer a question with a questions but how many Women's coaches, regardless of record, have had to been investigated by HR based on complaints from multiple former players and assistant coaches. While the investigation did not result in "sustained allegation of criminal conduct or abuse" it did conclude that JPM could/should treat people better-much better! Duke HR should not have to conduct an investigation for JPM to learn this very basic lesson and perhaps the money for the investigation would have been better spend on her buyout.

I raised the question in response to your comment about second tier status and the comparison to men's programs. I think that is a worthy question that I raised. To compare it to a men's program, there should be a comparator.

As far as what the investigation revealed, it said that communication needed to be better.

As far as multiple former players and assistant coaches, your facts are not accurate. None of the assistant coaches contacted agreed to be interviewed. Not all players contacted agreed to be interviewed. Now, had they been, things might have been very different. I will leave it at that.

Again, there were allegations, so the university investigated. Allegations are not the same as sustained misconduct.

Why do I suddenly feel like I'm preaching to the choir here and that someone has high jacked the former Cam?

HAHAHAHA! CocoHusky, I am the last person to want to defend Coach P. But I understand the multiple reasons why the university did not terminate her contract.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Somehow Camrn I am reminded of the following courtroom scene. Unfortunately, you are the prosecuting attorney and JPM is the witness:

 

[msf22b]

The transfers are a concern. But some are explained away.

Alexis Jones went to play closer to home because of her father's health. Salvadores went pro.

But can you really call it coaching incompetence when you look at the overall record

.

Sure, they didn't leave to play tiddlywinks, but Jones and Salvadores gave up the vaunted Duke degree to leave pre-maturely
they (and the coaches and the others), must have substantial reasons.

JPK's record is the result of the outstanding teams she assembled...give her credit for that...with an assist from the U's reputation.
But consider the difference in the play in Williams for example since she left the program.

If its not incompetence, it's pretty close to the line